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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s privacy and dignity

1000 replies

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 07/09/2025 13:43

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 11/09/2025 07:57

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 06:44

Um, male toilets aren't fully self contained. Any one needing to use one would still need to access the shared bathroom space. Given trans people are significantly more at risk in the company of males from violent hate crimes than of women & there's no evidence of increased risk from trans people to women, it's a logical conclusion for them to use the women's bathroom.

'male toilets aren't fully self contained. Any one needing to use one would still need to access the shared bathroom space.'

YAY!!!! You do understand that no male person should be accessing female single sex spaces. Woohoo!

'Given trans people are significantly more at risk in the company of males from violent hate crimes than of women'

Really? In the UK? You still have not provided the evidence for this at all. You have provided lots of deflection data which included hate crime but no actual data on physical violence.

'there's no evidence of increased risk from trans people to women'

How can anyone provide violent hate crime data for women in the UK when it is not recorded?

Here you are using dishonest tactics knowing full well there is not 'violent hate crime' data recorded for women in the UK.

How dishonest can someone get?

'it's a logical conclusion for them to use the women's bathroom.'

No. It is not a logical conclusion at all.

The only logical conclusion that can be drawn from your statement (if your statement was true) would be that a programme needs to be launched to make male single sex provisions safer for all male people.

This is due to female single sex spaces being created to protect female people from harms that are not limited to the risk of sex and violent crimes. Because it was never only about that risk of sex and violent crimes, your conclusion is flawed. In fact, it is false because other options are available.

For instance, male people who reject using male single sex spaces should follow the lead of those female people with transgender identities (that you, personally, seem to ignore) that plan their own days out of their homes and work places to be able to access unisex toilet and changing room facilities.

Why is it that the female people with transgender identities can do this, yet the male people with transgender identities cannot?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 11/09/2025 07:57

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:55

The correlating evidence shows the research to be credible.

Mothers Day Lol GIF by reactionseditor

Hahaha

Hopeful2go · 11/09/2025 07:57

I wouldn’t have thought anybody’s privacy or dignity was being infringed, though I might have wondered to myself why said woman didn’t either wear her swimsuit to shower or at least wrap a towel round herself .

ThatBlackCat · 11/09/2025 07:57

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:55

The correlating evidence shows the research to be credible.

Wrong. Actual research debunks the rubbish you have posted. As I said, the trajectory in not just one or two, but in three countries all align. No one can argue with that. Transwomen are extremely dangerous to females, far greater than other males.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 11/09/2025 08:00

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:41

I never said that was the link. Its a blog that explains why the data in the graphs is problematic. The research link regarding Translucent in mentioned in the article.

‘Research’ is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting here.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2025 08:00

The thing is that for all the dubious twisting of dubious statistics by the pp, translucent, Robbie from Stonewall and all other misogynistic men, “trans women” are men.

Men as a class commit 98% of sex crimes and most other violent crime. They also subject women to frequent sexual harassment. Women are objectively safer in women only spaces and most women also require them to be female only for their privacy and dignity, regardless of what the OP fascinatingly muses about it.

It is irrelevant whether it would benefit men who identify as women to use our female spaces, because for whatever reason they aren't happy in the men’s, because they are intended for women only.

Helleofabore · 11/09/2025 08:00

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:20

There's no data that confirms those figures. Even the Police admit as much.

Even the Police admit as much

Really? The police in the UK admit what?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2025 08:01

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:55

The correlating evidence shows the research to be credible.

Nope.

janeszebra · 11/09/2025 08:02

Hopeful2go · 11/09/2025 07:57

I wouldn’t have thought anybody’s privacy or dignity was being infringed, though I might have wondered to myself why said woman didn’t either wear her swimsuit to shower or at least wrap a towel round herself .

Never use female changing facilities in Denmark. All hanging out over here. And no one bats an eyelid. But a male coming in would have everyone scuttling to cover themselves, guaranteed. In fact, notices up in the changing facilities say children over the age of seven must change in the sex specific changing rooms. There are family changing rooms available as well.

I have adapted over the years to females all being naked in front of each other. My concern never being that another female is looking at me in a sexual manner, but more my own insecurities. A male is a whole other matter.

ArabellaSaurus · 11/09/2025 08:04

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:43

Please provide police data from UK government confirming your claim.

She's quoting your own link. Those stats are the ones Translucent provided.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2025 08:06

Many men have a sexual motivation for “identifying” as women. Their presence in women’s spaces subjects women to non consensual participation in a male sexual role play. This is sexual harassment in and of itself and women do not as a rule want to have to deal with this when we are undressed or otherwise vulnerable. The women who say they “don’t mind” being subjected to this are either naive and haven’t come across this behaviour yet from these men, outliers, or both.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 11/09/2025 08:07

www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9wy40rxrvxo

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 11/09/2025 08:07

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:55

The correlating evidence shows the research to be credible.

Jesus, this creepy tool is still going then

Matey, trying to ‘logic and rationale’ women out of a ‘No’ just outs you as a man who doesn’t respect boundaries and is safest avoided by all women everywhere

all the nuance in the world ain’t gonna make you come across as anything other than outright creepy

Helleofabore · 11/09/2025 08:10

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:22

Those charts have long been debunked & are not officially from the UK gov.
medium.com/@davidallsopp/bang-to-rights-d5eab85d9a2

Readers Note:

There is an archive version of the link to Allsopp's Bang to Rights below.
https://archive.ph/Lpi4w#selection-463.0-527.352

This is a critique of the validity of that article. It is not a reliable 'debunking' of the UK prisoner statistics where male people with transgender identities are shown to not have the same level of committing sex offences as female people or less than female people in the UK prison.

My observations are in brackets.

From Allsop
This is a fundamentally malicious and bogus argument:
it is fearmongering and smearing the innocent majority of a group based on the crimes of a handful of its members; a propaganda technique applied to marginalised groups throughout history;

(Official and neutral statistics that show a trend is a legitimate discussion point, considering we are and have been discussing safeguarding principles. This is not propaganda, this is showing an understanding of how risk has been based on historic and current facts.)

From Allsop
it has no credible moral, ethical or legal basis; human rights aren’t dependent on the crime stats for a minority group, just as they aren’t dependent on whether you live in a ‘high-crime postcode’; the vast majority are law-abiding even from the worst possible angle on the data;

(This is not relevant as far as I can see for invalidating official prison statistics. The issue is whether a group of male people still commit a particular group of crimes at the same rate or more or less than the general male population of the UK)

From Allsop
some of the rights they want to remove (legal gender recognition under the Gender Recognition Act 2004) are unrelated to crime, safety or gendered spaces;

(This is not relevant as far as I can see for invalidating official prison statistics. The issue is whether a group of male people still commit a particular group of crimes at the same rate or more or less than the general male population of the UK)

From Allsop
it is a classic “won’t somebody think of the women and children?!” moral panic, often using arguments like “even one case is too many, can’t be too careful!” which are deployed highly selectively to deny rights only to the minority group, not to everyone else;

(It is about safeguarding. Remembering that access to single sex spaces is not just about protection from sex crimes, but also a range of other specific needs unique to female people.

It is also very important here to remember this whenever some one tries to leverage in 'deny rights' - Article 8 has restrictions available to it.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/human-rights/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

Article 8 protects your right to respect for your private and family life.

The EHRC link covers what this means. Including these restrictions:

Restrictions to the right to respect for your private and family life

There are situations when public authorities can interfere with your right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. This is only allowed where the authority can show that its action is lawful, necessary and proportionate in order to:
protect national security
protect public safety
protect the economy
protect health or morals
prevent disorder or crime, or
protect the rights and freedoms of other people.

Action is ‘proportionate’ when it is appropriate and no more than necessary to address the problem concerned.)

From Allsop
in many cases the statistics they use are irrelevant, selective, biased, decontextualised, misinterpreted and presented deceptively;

(These prison stats are not irrelevant, selective, biased, there is no decontextualisation, they are not misinterpreted and stating the raw stats is not presenting them deceptively. They are accurately collected and have been reinforced by being accepted as accurate in parliament and in court (ie. no judge has said, 'these statistics are inaccurate'. They have accepted them as being accurate. So, Allsop just saying this, doesn't mean any of this point is true or an accurate characterisation of the MoJ prison stats)

From Allsop
these often aren’t even actually crime stats — they are imprisonment stats, which is not the same thing at all when you are trying to claim that a group is “inherently” more criminal; the connection between crime and punishment is tenuous and complex…

(This doesn't even make logical sense. The only point any one using these statistics should be making is that they don't show in any way that this group of male people show a female pattern of crime - either in rates or in the nature of the crime itself).

From Allsop
…and marginalised groups often have much higher rates of incarceration due to systemic bias in every stage of the justice system, and wider society; one cannot take such numbers at face value without adopting (e.g.) blatantly racist beliefs. Prison stats can (and do) vary dramatically (e.g. due to changes in policing), demolishing the idea that they measure “inherent” qualities of a group.

(And this is where we keep pointing out that this is a flawed 'theory'. What does seem to be a logical deduction looking at past cases that in the UK, and Australia, this group get leniency. Quite the opposite of this point. There is no evidence in the UK to suggest that the UK justice system has a systemic bias towards this group of male people. At all. )

TheKeatingFive · 11/09/2025 08:11

'it's a logical conclusion for them to use the women's bathroom.'

This is the dumbest post of the entire thread.

No. As they are MEN that is the exact opposite of a logical conclusion

🙄

ArabellaSaurus · 11/09/2025 08:11

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 11/09/2025 08:07

Jesus, this creepy tool is still going then

Matey, trying to ‘logic and rationale’ women out of a ‘No’ just outs you as a man who doesn’t respect boundaries and is safest avoided by all women everywhere

all the nuance in the world ain’t gonna make you come across as anything other than outright creepy

tbh, this one is so uninspired the posts aren't even registering as an irritant. Like a midge with no bite.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2025 08:12

Allsop seems like a deeply creepy little man. He can fuck right off telling women that men can use women’s spaces.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/09/2025 08:13

Howseitgoin · 11/09/2025 07:53

No it doesn't & never can because like any data regarding trans people there isn't enough of them to make a statistical conclusion. Same with lesbians that sexually assault women.

And no less than a high court judge ruled on this very matter of data when it came to trans prisoners.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/02/trans-women-with-sex-offence-convictions-in-female-jails-lawful-rules-judge

"Between 2016 and 2019, a total of 97 sexual assaults were recorded in women’s prisons, of which seven appeared to be committed by transgender prisoners without a GRC. It is not known whether any were committed by transgender women with a GRC but the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC across all jails is thought to be in single figures.

Transgender Americans can choose gender on passport, state department says
Read more
Holroyde said the statistics were too low and had insufficient detail to provide a safe basis for conclusions, adding: “I can accept, at any rate for present purposes, that the unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women’s prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced. But that statistical conclusion takes no account of the risk assessment which the policies require.”

Who cares?

Women say no. Trans people need to respect that, and campaign for their own spaces if they really believe they are unable to use the spaces that have already been provided for members of their own sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2025 08:14

ArabellaSaurus · 11/09/2025 08:11

tbh, this one is so uninspired the posts aren't even registering as an irritant. Like a midge with no bite.

Edited

Agree, I think we’re just batting their posts away now without taking them seriously or taking offence at the transparent attempts to get a rise out of feminists.

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