Palestine Action protests

[BettyBooper]

I do realise that this is the FWR board, but there are some undercurrents of similarity, which is my interest.

Palestine Action has be proscribed as a terrorist organisation. This protest (to my understanding) was about that decision, not about the issue in Palestine itself.

I'm concerned that what was about Palestine is now in sizable number (as reported), elderly people protesting in support of a proscribed terrorist organisation.

You can protest about Palestine without supporting this organisation. So what's happening here?

I think my concern is that bad actors are using well meaning people to push an ideology. Which is the similarity with gender ideology and hence me posting here.

Again, my concern is that the protest appears to be in support of a group rather than the cause.

Sorry, crosspost, @ArabellaSaurus .Completely agree.

I'm really happy to be in solidarity with GC women who are supportive of Israel; just as I am happy to have Tories Sharon Davies and Emma Nicholson on the team.

(Not so sure about trump. But then he isn't genuinely GC at all. Just a dick.)

That said, it is an interesting issue to analyse through the varied lenses of ones own feminism, and possibly wider thinking with regards to material analysis, oppression, and other relevant "feminist" topics?

Gender critical thought doesn't map onto this touchstone issue, any more than it maps on to being right wing.

I could not disagree more with the pro-Pals usually and yet I agree with this.

I thought radical feminism was about the root of issues, materiality, causes and consequences. Half-arsed analogies don't deal with root causes and complexities. We don't want to merge into another Omnicause.

I asked a genuine question.

Going off some of the posts on this thread, I'm guessing your hostility in response to realising you were replying to me, is because you've just assumed I'm a TRA?!

Such narrow minded profiling get us nowhere.

Which is absolutely what is missing from society these days.

It honestly never crossed my mind if you're a TRA, your assumptions are also way off 😵‍💫

Ignorance and false assumptions also get us nowhere

I posted it here because my thoughts are not about the rights and wrongs of either side.

We've all seen the queers for Palestine placards. This is clearly an unlikely pairing.

After what we have seen in the GL trial and a few bad actors having such massive influence and then seeing the PA protests, when people could easily protest without supporting PA, it made me wonder.

I've found it very interesting to get such a variety of views tbh.

I'm very solidly for freedom of speech. Seeing the tactics used by TRAs to capture institutions has been horrifying. Unfortunately, I do wonder whether the manner in which PA has managed to gain support might be instructive to TRAs.

OK, sure 😁

I'm not saying you don't exist.

I'm pointing out that if you state your GC views in a particularly left wing space (for example the space around 'Your Party', then you will be attacked for those views and it will be suggested that you are not welcome there and should leave.

I heard from a friend who went to a Pride event that there was more said about Palestine there than there was about gay rights.

The purity spiral around the 'correct views' is strong on the far left.

.

What made you think I assumed you were a TRA?

I think that when you are in an "in group" the people also in that group appear to hold a wide range of views and you see them as individuals. The outgroup, by contrast, appears much more homogeneous and its much easier/feels more logical to make generalised statements about them. Therefore it's also easy to see contradictions "the outgroup thinks X but also does Y hypocrites".

The in group/out group can be defined by different political beliefs, different single issue beliefs, different religions or race etc etc. This way of thinking tends to affect everyone to varying degrees.

Depends on the left wing space though doesn't it. The space around "Your Party" may well be more populated by the liberal/progressive left (e.g. your classic 'beardy bros') who are vastly TWAW. It would be different if you were in another left wing space (a Marxist reading group for example).

I am not part of 'Your Party' and have no desire to be. But I do know people who are and the events held are as diverse as the 'membership' (I say that in inverted commas as there's no official membership yet and as a result no official membership due diligence being done) Of course there are going to be pockets of TRAs in places, but in other areas, the rights of trans people is very far down the list of things they care about.

(Infact before I was banned on Labour reddit, the TRAs were all whinging that 'Your Party' didn't represent them and calling JC fit to burn. I'm sure it was no coincidence that a few days later ZS came out with her nonsense statement 🙄).

Re Pride, again organised by individuals and the content reflects that. Although I will say that Pride has always been an event for solidarity.

This might suprise you but the more left wing the space, the more likely you are to hear gc views. The majority of people who call themselves 'left wing' are actually centre left liberals, and that view is a hill I will die on.

I don't need to prove to you what I know to be true.

Well yes, communists appear to be able to do class analysis.

But the left in general political discussion is usually more the Corbynites/Greens than the communists. I’m not sure they’re as prevalent.

Many of us here have come to reject the packaging or suite of 'correct' beliefs which one must subscribe to in order to align with one's chosen tribe.

I imagine I was active in Left wing circles long before you were ( though maybe I'm wrong and you have been proclaiming this 'pro palestine' position for over 40 years), and I happen to know that hatred of Israel has always been baked in as a necessary article of faith for much of the Left. Most assume this as a rite of passage, rather than due to any personal observation, experience or reflection.

Although I agree this isn’t technically the place for a discussion about this, the fact is that this is one of the few boards where you can have a nuanced discussion with intelligent people. If you talk about this on the Middle East board it turns into sound bites and name-calling within about 5 posts.

Having argued that if someone who is on FWR wants to discuss an issue, any issue with those who have shared views about women's sex based rights, of course they should.

But having only just had time to catch up on this it hasn't been a discussion it has been my side is right your side is wrong, based on wildly inaccurate statements about this group is this, this group is that.

If I was to put forward an "arguement" in the same way I would say most socialist feminists are pro trans and anti Israel (ie the state specifically Netanyahu who Israelis want to step down). GC feminists are seen as being Islamphobes who are hijacking the anti semitism argement because in their minds it legitimises thinking killing thousands of women and children is okay.

Seriously, do any of you read back what you have written?

The Palestine Action protests have been organised by a group called Defend Our Juries because they think "the people" should be the ones who decide whether someone is a terrorist or a protestor who destroys property as part of a protest.

Stunning stupid assertions that X, Y or Z has been hijacked are just plain juvenile foot stamping. All you are saying is I think they are wrong, so I will attempt to slur them

For heavens sake grow up.

People have different opinions.

Must growns up able to have a conversation about freedom of speech.

And whether it is up to the Government to say what can or cant be said.

That is the issue.

And whether if you dont believe in a Government having the right to say that (eg Glinner) that you have the right to protest them doing it.

As to why the situation in Gaza and Israel is an issue many in this country think is important is that the UK in particular because of its role in the creation of Israel, and now as a subservient follower of the US has not been neutral in an area of conflict.

If it wasn't about Israel and Gaza how many on FWR would think it okay for the UK to be providing arms and aerial intelligence to bomb women and children?

And that isn't because I am anti Israel but like a lot of "ordinary" people I am shocked at the level of brutality by the state of Israel.

Not that they shouldn't have the right to defend their citizens from attack but wholesale bombing is not and has not secured the release of hostages. As are many Jewish people and Israelis themselves. Just as many people in the UK thought we should never have teamed up with the US in bombing Iraq.

Far from whether those supporting or participating in the PA protests are gullible, I would say those who are gullible are those repeating unsubstantiated cliches.

The Palestine Action protests have been organised by a group called Defend Our Juries because they think "the people" should be the ones who decide whether someone is a terrorist or a protestor who destroys property as part of a protest.

Parliament are the ones who decided that PA should be proscribed and isn’t that literally what ‘the people’ elect them to do? Make decisions on our behalf?

I think if you manage to mainly damage Jewish owned property and Uk military assets on purpose and you plan to do more of that then yeah you are trying to use violence to force a change in government policy which actually circumnavigates our democracy. It absolutely does not bolster it. As Yvette Cooper pointed out the public don’t know everything. I’ll be interested to see what the legal challenge throws up.

There was an attack by pro-Palestinian protesters on vehicles in Belgium they thought for some reason were going to the IDF and were actually headed to Ukraine. It was interesting for a few reasons, they were all wearing the same gear, someone had kitted them out. Secondly I remeber listening to the conflicted podcast and one of the hosts raised the possibility of terrorism for sale. He was talking in the context of jihadis acting as mercenaries. But I can’t help thinking it wouldn’t be beyond the realms of possibility that Russia actually funded that particular group because they are highly motivated, pointed them in the “right” direction and gave them “intel”. Sounds conspiracy theorist but it’s russia so yeah.

So there may be reasons that aren’t clear in regards to funding etc that the public doesn’t know about.

It’s not just property is it though, hitting a person with a sledgehammer seems like attempted murder to me. Elbit even says there the factory supplies to the UK armed forces, not the Israelis. So who’s harmed by the destruction of that material…. The UK army.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro

I started the thread and I haven't done any of those things.

Not that they shouldn't have the right to defend their citizens from attack but wholesale bombing is not and has not secured the release of hostages

So why are Hamas not giving back the hostages? Are you saying that if Israel hadn't bombed them, the hostages would have been back home by now?

Tbh I don't want to get into that debate.

This thread is about PA not the war as a whole.

'The people ' have no idea what security information the government has. And 'the people' bought the TRAs arguments hook line and sinker until 5 minutes ago.

I'm not getting into an argument with you about the war but questioning what is happening isn't 'gullible'. Why do you think freedom of speech only extends to those supporting PA?

We certainly retain the right to protest the government's actions! Or are you suggesting nobody should ever counter the current government, on the basis that they were voted in by a majority?

I agree, though it will be interesting what the court finds in terms of PAs activities.

I want the public to be in possession of as many of the facts as possible. Especially as people are currently being arrested.

Oh to be able to trust those in power!

I think people have a right to protest but I think the bar here would be if there was a far right group which had attacked uk military assets both at an RAF base and a factory, bashed a couple of policemen and a security guard in the head with a sledgehammer, attacked minority owned businesses because they didn’t like the Uk government I don’t know sending aid to Pakistan because the Pakistani establishment is thought to allow jihadi camps to operate within it’s borders.

If there were a group, like this and it had been proscribed as a terror organisation would people on FWR be suggesting that their supporters shouldn’t be arrested because of freedom of speech? Because to my kind there actions are far beyond protest.

Or is that there are people who are hugely and understandably sympathetic to the Palestinians plight and are therefore happy to overlook a bunch of actions that point to an organisation that is happy to damage the interests of the UK (and people may not like it but some of our arms go to places like Ukraine, or help bolster the defences of the Baltics). And also happy to target businesses on the basis of the Nationality/ethnicity/religion of their owners (see above where the factory that was attacked does even supply Israel).