Palestine Action protests

[BettyBooper]

I do realise that this is the FWR board, but there are some undercurrents of similarity, which is my interest.

Palestine Action has be proscribed as a terrorist organisation. This protest (to my understanding) was about that decision, not about the issue in Palestine itself.

I'm concerned that what was about Palestine is now in sizable number (as reported), elderly people protesting in support of a proscribed terrorist organisation.

You can protest about Palestine without supporting this organisation. So what's happening here?

I think my concern is that bad actors are using well meaning people to push an ideology. Which is the similarity with gender ideology and hence me posting here.

Again, my concern is that the protest appears to be in support of a group rather than the cause.

Also, I don't think criticism of Israel is an 'article of faith' for the Left. The Left has traditionally been grounded in its opposition to colonialism, occupation, systemic oppression, and in solidarity with marginalised peoples. Criticism of Israeli state policy therefore seems to be entirely consistent with left wing principles!

This is, imo, absolutely batshit and also antisemitic.

1. it’s never out of the media. Anyone who follows the news cannot fail to be aware of the dire situation in Gaza and Israel’s actions which are causing this.

2. suggesting that Keir Starmer is being manipulated by his wife, who is Jewish, to keep Israel out of the news is antisemitic.

Would these be the same ‘human rights organisations’ and international legal bodies that have joined in with the ‘trans rights are human rights’ bandwagon?

If you want to say that you don’t like Bibi’s government and you think his government is mishandling Gaza, that’s fine. But if you think there’s an issue with ‘the State of Israel’, you are being groomed into anti-Semitism.

You’re being groomed into thinking that a state having a particular narrative during a war, and aiming to remove a threat during a war is somehow uniquely evil. You’re being groomed into thinking that the Israeli army can somehow achieve the miracle of not killing any innocents, while having an army made up mostly of teenagers.

If you do want to protest about a state kidnapping children, razing towns to the ground and injuring and killing civilians, you should be protesting outside the Russian embassy. I’m sure there are other examples.

And the 'peace loving' Palestinians who boarded a bus in Jerusalem today and opened fire, killing six civilians including a pregnant woman, are you going to condemn those innocent civilian deaths? Are you going to go on a march demanding a ceasefire from Palestinians? If you're not a raging antisemite, you agree, surely, that Jews have every right to protect themselves from Palestinian terrorists who murder, rape and kidnap indiscriminately, right?

@Rednorth in a thread where pro-Palestinians have been criticised for their lack of critical thinking skills, it'd be highly amusing if you can't answer this

That is the lens you have elected to look through. But don't mistake your own filters for the whole truth. How does Hamas fare in your systemic evaluation? Or what about Iran, the Houthis, Hezbollah? These are organisations which terrorise and execute their own people, and who care not one bit whether their own people die; in fact they use them as shields

Criticism of policies is one thing, and that is something that happens in the press of every free nation with a free press...but criticism of particular policies does not equate with a hatred of a whole nation and its people; or the way in which one country is singled out for disproprtionate attention whilst others are neglected.

Hamas executes and terrorises its own people.

https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1963618559180898802

If that were the case they would be marching and protesting against other countries who the UK is allied to, except they're only mobilised by the only Jewish state. I'm really not sure they're marching in solidarity with Israelis, seeing as none of them hold banners calling for the release of the hostages on their hate marches

Human rights organisations and international legal bodies aren't fringe groups; they don’t become credible when condemning Russia or Sudan but suddenly illegitimate when condemning Israel.

Criticism of the State of Israel is not antisemitism. Antisemitism is hostility to Jewish people because they are Jewish. Condemning state policies of occupation, disproportionate force, or acts that multiple independent bodies have described as genocide is no different in principle to condemning any other state’s unlawful actions.

And fyi; I've previously protested outside both the Russian embassy and the Edinburgh consulate, and will continue to join protests (alongside my Jewish friends and colleagues) in condemnation of the awful situation in Gaza.

From the Holocaust Remembrance website:

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.
Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Hope this helps those who are still unclear

I think some of the obsessive criticism of Israel which is definitely over and above that received by other dubious regimes is not rooted in individual antisemitism but because it has become as easy way to lazily signal your left-wing credentials and earn brownie points. See its appearance at unconnected events such as music festivals.

Over and above...sorry, which other country is currently committing genocide? As you say, it's everywhere you look. Think we aren't turning a blind eye?

The point I am getting at is that people think ‘I don’t hate Jews, I only hate Israelis, so I’m not an anti-Semite’. What they don’t see is that their condemnation of Israel has its roots in anti-Semitic ideas that are as old as the hills. Yes, the Israeli government briefs the media. So does every government. Yes, innocent people have died in this war, as they do in all wars. It’s the use of these facts as evidence of Israel’s evil that is problematic. It’s painting Israel as the monster, with other states or people bearing minimal culpability. It’s the black and white thinking.

Do you believe that Israel is the only country currently committing genocide? Not clear from your post.

This is really just a circular argument. The leftist position is to be against Israel and you have provided are some leftist justifications that can be used to support this position. You could equally cook up left-wing reasons to be pro-Israel if that was your motivation.

You could say that Israel is a liberal democracy that gives women and gay people equal rights. You could talk about Jews being indigenous to the region and call it de-colonisation. You could support the kibbutz movement. You could talk about the refuge from persecution provided by Israel to Jewish people from the Middle East and around the world.

A Classic anti semtic conspiracy trope.

Meanwhile what is actually never reported on is the way in which Hamas and other terrorist cells in Gaza torture and execute their own people on a daily basis.

Question: was Gaza occupied on October 7th 2023? Bonus points if you can answer this correctly without Googling.

Question: if Israel is a colonialist state, which part of Israel is the colony and who is the occupying power?

Question: what do you regard as disproportionate force?

Question: given that many of the Israeli hostages have still not been released, should Hamas still be regarded as a threat to Israeli civilians?

Question: what are the actual actions of the Israeli army that you condemn?

Sadly, the trans debacle means that I absolutely can decide that international organisations aren’t credible on every topic. I admire your still unsullied faith - but I don’t envy it.

You could also talk about the fact that pre October 7th, many Palestinians had permits to work in Israel, earning far more than they would have done had they remained in Gaza or the West Bank; permittiing them to build homes and feed their families. Hamas certainly does not do this...instead it diverts all international aid into enriching its leaders at the expense of building up a viable state for their its people.

Plenty of people support Israel's right to exist who are not Israeli.

The haters cannot ever seem to manage to separate a particular government or a particular policy from its people. In fact the hatred extends to anyone, anywhere that supports Israel's existence.

To be fair though, it's a liberal democracy for Israelis; I wouldn't say it being selectively democratic is particularly left wing.
Re 'indigenous', even if the incoming people were proven direct descendents of Abraham himself it still wouldn't justify displacing a population (again, displacement is not exactly left wing).
Re kibbutzim, yes on paper very left wing, socialist and lovely, but in practice again involving displacement / dispossession.
So in all, not very leftist!

1: Yes, occupied as in 'under Israeli control / blockade';
2: The occupying power is the State of Israel, the colony is Palestine;
3: Disproportionate force = flattening residential blocks, bombing aid convoys/refugee tents, destroying hospitals, etc;
4: Yes, Hamas are a threat to Israeli citizens (criticism of Israel doesn't mean Hamas are excused;
5: Indiscriminate bombing, forced displacement, targeting medical facilities/workers... Etc

Palestinians shouldn't need permits to work on their land though. And allowing work permits doesn't negate the checkpoints / restrictions / blockade / economic control does it..?

Re international aid, afaik most of it is routed through international agencies and monitored (it doesn't go directly to Hamas). Saying 'all international aid is diverted' is a) unevidenced, and b) even if Hamas managed it, they wouldn't be able to build a viable state anyway whilst under the aforementioned Israeli control!

So are you a one-state ‘solution’ person then? The state being Palestinian? Israel has no right to exist, it should be Palestinian?

And Gaza was controlled by Israel, despite Gaza also bordering Egypt. How amazingly powerful these Israelis are. They managed to occupy a country without an occupying army and blockade it via Egypt.

And Israel is the colonial power, despite most Israelis being displaced from the other countries of the Middle East. It’s incredible. They’ve managed to colonise themselves. How do they do it?

And Israel is apparently guilty of every war crime under the sun, with no extenuating circumstances allowed. But Hamas, definitely guilty of war crimes, is a ‘threat’ who should be ‘allowed to build a viable state’.

Not really legitimate inhabitants, displace others but never, ever to be considered ‘displaced’ themselves, amazingly powerful, control foreign governments, foreign colonisers, guilty of nefarious crimes … I dunno, but I’m starting to see a pattern in your replies.

The worst thing is that you probably believe everything you’ve said is true.

Your ideological take on the matter does not equal the truth. Israel is a functional and democratic nation state whether you approve or not. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in 2006, and rather than build it up the lection of Hamas instead turned it into a terrorist state intent on the destruction of it neighbour.
There is a reason that Egypt also heavily controls its border with Gaza and will not permit entry to Gazans. And there is a reason that Jordan tired of the Palestinians too. Their leadership does them no favours at all.

Above, we heard that Starmer's refusal to bow down to this sort of automatic anti Israel position comes down to his Jewish wife putting pressure on him. This sort of automatic anti semitic conspiracy sentiment is what lies beneath much of the pro Palestine movement.

Regarding much of the aid, it has been shown that Hamas members are also employed by the UN ( Now Gaza's biggest employer) in schools, hospitals , in journalism and in aid distribution centres.

At one point the Egyptian drivers were refusing to go into Gaza with their lorries because they were being hijacked by Hamas 'operatives' and their drivers terrorised. When the first ceasefire was called early on this year....Hamas appeared coming out of a hospital compound complete in their new, shiny outfits which are stored in the tunnels beneath the hospitals, along with everything else. ( Before they enacted their planned, staged release 'ceremonies' for the hostages)

Hamas was/is stealing and then selling the aid back to its own people at inflated prices, and many cannot afford this for obvious reasons. Wrong clan, wrong tribe, no family status.......tough!

How do you think the Hamas leaders got so wealthy, and why they live in luxury in Qatar or Turkey?