Palestine Action protests

[BettyBooper]

I do realise that this is the FWR board, but there are some undercurrents of similarity, which is my interest.

Palestine Action has be proscribed as a terrorist organisation. This protest (to my understanding) was about that decision, not about the issue in Palestine itself.

I'm concerned that what was about Palestine is now in sizable number (as reported), elderly people protesting in support of a proscribed terrorist organisation.

You can protest about Palestine without supporting this organisation. So what's happening here?

I think my concern is that bad actors are using well meaning people to push an ideology. Which is the similarity with gender ideology and hence me posting here.

Again, my concern is that the protest appears to be in support of a group rather than the cause.

Well said 👍

I'm concerned that what was about Palestine is now in sizable number (as reported), elderly people protesting in support of a proscribed terrorist organisation.

How did you decide that the protesters are "elderly"? Do you mean that they were people who were too young to have experienced the UK's, and its constituent countries' (especially Scotland's) pushback against earlier waves of antisemitism? That doesn't make it OK for YOU to be an antisemite.

What I’m saying is I disagree with you when you suggested that damaging warplanes makes this terrorism.

Terrorism is about trying to terrorise people to get political change, and I don’t think damaging planes counts.

Also that we have very strict laws to prevent terrorism and those laws very severely restrict free speech. So we should all worry when those laws are used for different crimes like criminal damage, becuase it’s the rights of all of us that are being reduced.

I don’t understand what the parallel is with GC though I’d be interested for you to explain.

And the reason I dislike PA being subject to this terror law isn’t because I’m sympathetic to either their goals or their methods.

By your logic the Suffragettes were 'terrorists' too? See this IS connected to Feminism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

Palestine Action aren't a peaceful protest group, aswell as sabotaging military equipment they've attacked Jewish owned businesses and hospitalised a police officer after attacking them with a sledgehammer when they targeted Elbit Systems

If, say, a pro-Russia group damaged military planes or attacked the police would it be looked on as sympathetically by some here?

They’ve attacked military sites, private businesses, police, a security guard got smacked with a hammer.

This is not free speech.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj0yyvj7jmmo

PA might be very bad people, but that doesn't make them terrorists.

This is issue of government overreach and misapplying power. If it is PA today, who or what will be next?

And if you can be arrested under terrorism charges just for writing "I support PA" on a piece of paper, things are seriously wrong in our country.

And that is precisely the point.

The government, regardless of what colour it's pretending to be, is in a constant battle with its own citizens, trying desperately to manufacture and manage consent and control to keep itself in power.

It would prefer the hoi palloi remain pliable and obedient, so free speech rights are being eroded step by step, invariably under the banner of whatever moral panic is in fashion at the time.

By proscribing PA as a terrorist group, the government are testing - in much the same way an infant tests boundaries - what it can get away with. If there is no notable opposition, no meaningful protest, then a precedent is set and the government can then proscribe any other group it decides it doesn't like.

PA's actions of criminal damage are just that, criminal damage. I don't necessarily agree with their actions but, like the Suffragettes of old, I absolutely agree with their aim of forcing this morally bankrupt government to cease supplying arms to Israel, and to cease supporting literal genocide.

It's not about being arrested for words on a piece of paper, they're being arrested for supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation

If you want to challenge laws there's proper legal routes to do so. These 'activists' are just doing this for the spectacle. They're playing to foreign actors who want to benefit from making the West look like it's falling apart

This isn't about fighting the proscription of PA, it's a media and propaganda campaign

Incorrect.

The protests are absolutely about opposition to the government proscribing a group as a terrorist organisation because it shines a light of the government's shameful political stance on the situation in Palestine.

"This isn't about fighting the proscription of PA, it's a media and propaganda campaign"

They are the same thing. By highlighting the protests and, particularly, by highlighting the absurdity of the police in arresting peaceful protesters, they are embarrassing the government in the eyes of the people; well, in the eyes of the people who have a working moral compass.

These protests are high profile precisely because they have to be; that's the point of protest. But be under no illusions that they are not being done as a PR 'stunt'. There is very real, very important purpose, and they should be supported by anyone who rejects the idea we should all be quiet and obedient to the government's failings.

Stating that PA is a terrorist organisation was ridiculous and i understand the concerns about free speech. I understand people wanting to protest about that. There are more elderly doing it as i believe they are less worried about the implications of a conviction, they don’t have jobs to worry about, not bothered about being banned from America.

The numbers being arrested yesterday were crazy, I was watching tiktok live videos of Parliament Square. They bundled a vicar in full robe and dog collar into a police van. They told an elderly lady she was probably going to get taken to Southampton as that was the nearest police station with any space!! They had police from Wales and Liverpool as well as other forces helping as they have run out of officers as well as cell space. They also appeared to have run out of handcuffs. Mini bus after mini bus being filled with arrested protesters.

They haven't been proscribed 'because it shines a light of the government's shameful political stance on the situation in Palestine.' It's because they caused criminal damage to military planes, attacked police with sledgehammers and terrorised jewish owned businesses etc

Terrorist organisations don't get a free pass because they support the Leftists' current cause du jour

It shows how many people were breaking the law then doesn't it. Would you prefer it if law breakers weren't arrested? Since when did the public choose which laws are to be adhered to and which are to be ignored? Should Vicars be the ones to decide which laws are followed? 😂

The Suffragettes committed acts of arson, bombings, and vandalism. They targeted infrastructure, government buildings, and public spaces.

Do think they were just criminals in need of punishment and their voices shutting down, or do you think there may have been a deeper, more important reason for their actions?

You could say the same of trans activists' protests aswell then. Maybe they're justified in attacking women and sending out death threats on the basis there's 'a deeper, more important reason for their actions'

Terrorist actions are still terrorist actions regardless of whether you agree with their cause

Just wondering which businesses you mean when you say that Palestine Action has 'attacked Jewish owned businesses', @PollyPaintsFlowers .

The way that you phrase it implies that they are attacking businesses just because they are owned by Jewish people - which obvs would make them absolutely unacceptable. Is that really the case, or are you referring to businesses that are implicated in the Israeli aggression in Palestine (for example by supplying weapons or in other ways financially benefiting from war) and just happen to be owned by Jewish people?

If it turns out to be the latter, then your phrasing would be an egregious attempt to wrongfoot protest against the war by misrepresenting it as antisemitism.

"Since when did the public choose which laws are to be adhered to and which are to be ignored?"

Twas ever thus. Laws in a functional democratic society are not - or, at least, should not be - dictates; rather, they are agreements between the majority to behave in a certain way.
Fundamentally, the validity of a law only exists by common consent that it is valid.

If a government over-reaches itself, as it demonstrably has in this case, and attempts to legislate against a significant enough portion of the population then that over-reach must - in a functional democracy - be challenged.

I understand your desire for the comfort of never questioning those who govern you, but there must - arguably - come a point at which we all have to take a stand. In this particular case, the government has decided to directly attack a group whose aims (note, aims not necessarily methods) many would argue are in the moral interest. It has decided to do this by curtailing free speech.

A significant proportion of the population have decided, rightly in my view, to say they do not consent to that particular law, and are showing their disregard of it by peaceful protest.

Nothing egregious at all. The police are certainly treating it as antisemitism (racially aggravated hate crime) https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jewish-business-in-stamford-hill-targeted-by-palestine-action/

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/police-hate-crime-jewish-business-b1230275.html

But PA 'alleged' that one of the businesses were a landlord for Elbit, so that's ok then. Perfectly normal to go into a heavily Jewish populated area and smash windows, break into businesses and destroy private property. Not terrorism in the slightest 🤪

I think you'll find most people are against PA's acts of violence and destruction. The amount of people protesting against their being proscribed is a miniscule percentage of the population. Like TRAs they're just a very noisy minority

So difficult to know what to get outraged about, isn't it?

Tens of thousands of people exercising their free speech every weekend to protest against Israel's current actions in Gaza, and not being arrested? How appalling, two-tier Keir, etc.

A specific organisation being proscribed for specific actions (violent attacks on British military sites and suppliers) and supporters being arrested? How appalling, their free speech is being impinged on.

The article itself indicates that the business was targeted by Palestine Action because of its alleged connections with Elbit weapons factory.

It would be irresponsible of the Police not to look into the possibility of it being an anti-Jewish hate crime. That doesn't at all contradict the group's explicit account of its actions and motivation.

The action itself (vandalism) can and should be penalised with the laws relating to criminal damage, etc. Terrorist legislation is not generally used to pursue direct action groups.

If it does turn out to be an antisemitic action, then laws relating to hate crime will hopefully ensure a more severe punishment for the criminal damage. Again, no need to misapply terrorism laws.

terrorism /tĕr′ə-rĭz″əm/

noun
The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.
The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation.
The practise of coercing governments to accede to political demands by committing violence on civilian targets; any similar use of violence to achieve goals.

Terrorism laws haven't been misapplied. PA meets the definition quite clearly

It kind of is to be honest. I just admit i didn’t know about how PA have apparently smashed up a Jewish business and hit a police officer. Which in my mind is worse than throwing paint over a plane even if the latter was expensive to fix. As a not very interested member of the public it seemed to me that the declaration PA were a terrorist organisation came right after the plane incident and seemed to be a result of that. 🤷‍♀️.

According to the bbc the govt say PA have committed 3 acts of terrorism but decline to say which three acts they were. Maybe there is a security reason for not disclosing? But that level of secrecy really doesn’t help the govt from a PR pov.

On one hand I’m fed up with all the protests….not just Palestine Action but also Stop Oil, Extinction Rebellion, etc. The latter two wind me up no end with sitting on roads, throwing paint at art. And it seems like PA have been treated more harshly compared to them. I’d like all the road protesters locked up for longer if I’m honest and certainly dragged off the road immediately. 😁. I don’t find that a peaceful protest compared to sitting in Parliament Square holding signs. But I accept one is now a terrorist organisation and the others aren’t.

PA are really good at alleging Jewish buildings somehow house landlords of Elbit Systems. There's clearly an awful lot of these landlords about. Here's another one. However if it truly was about Elbit why daub Happy Nakba Day on it?

Surely it wasn't antisemitism though 🤪

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/police-launch-investigation-after-office-31647823

And yes, @BettyBooper , I'd noticed much the same as you've outlined in your OP.

The issues are different but the techniques are very similar.

Pick people up on an issue that they genuinely care about. Then slide them over to something a little different. Work hard to elide the two. In particular, require allegiance to particular ideas or phrases as a show of support – "If you don't proclaim B, then you never supported A".

This bit really sprang out to me:
In a separate post on X, it said the group represented "every individual" who is opposed to Israel's military action in Gaza, adding: "If they want to ban us, they ban us all."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq6m24v7910o

I'm sure this line is very effective; it's just not actually true. I'm opposed to Israel's military action in Gaza... and Palestine Action does not represent me.

I'm watching "I support Palestine Action" becoming the new "TWAW".

(I use TWAW as an example, but I could have picked up a slogan from another side or another cause. The technique remains the same.)