NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

I just made a nomination!

I love his X account. He is such a good Ambassador for the UK. I just imagine Japanese people following him and wanting to visit.

I've read some heartbreaking posts on X by pp who transitioned young and now they're older, bitterly regret it. Unfortunately once you've taken puberty blockers and/ or had surgery, it's irreversible and they have to live with it for the rest of their lives. So sad and utterly shameful that they are enabled by the adults around them, even when they, in good faith think they're doing the right thing.

I would have hoped they avoided the media if possible. They will however make sure their decision is based on the evidence and not external opinion.

A word of caution for anyone expecting a big finale to the tribunal: IIRC, there will be lots of references to legal cases which have a bearing on the case, & then it ends not with a bang but a whimper. The judgement gets published months later.

You can be compelled to be a witness at an ET. NC could have applied to the tribunal for a witness order. However, Doyle would clearly be a hostile witness as a Fife employee. Much better from NC's perspective to simply highlight Fife's failure to call him and invite the tribunal to draw an adverse inference from that if she thinks his non-attendance is significant. She may, of course, feel that there is no need to go down this route - that she already has more than enough to win the case.

Me too. Sandie Peggie for nurse award!

Ignorance of the law is no defence. Nor is it exculpatory that someone else told you the wrong law. They didn’t manhandle him into the changing room and force him to change there. (This may be why they are making much of not instructing him he had to use it).

I would imagine he is on stress-related sick or special leave right now. He said he had daily panic attacks after the tribunal claim was first made. The worst has happened and he is unlikely to be well and working through it.

But, in principle, there are plenty of jobs for early career doctors that don't involve changing rooms.

I'm not convinced he necessarily used female CR very often before the A&E role. He had only been 'out' a year and some/all of that was in psychiatry where doctors usually wear ordinary clothes rather than scrubs. Early career doctors get a lot of grunt- work like writing up prescriptions, or dealing with physical health problems on psych wards, and their work is usually either via attendance at ward round, or in outpatient clinics, home visits, or on-call to A&E as required. He may have popped into the female toilets but that is not as noticeable and less likely to give rise to complaints than a changing room where his male body would have been more clearly on display.

I doubt that Upton's use of 'bathroom' is entirely related to picking up language from US documents. It's possibly a useful word to fudge the issue of what he actually did and what facilities he used before he joined A&E.

I keep failing to understand why the HR department didn’t get a legal opinion on DU’s use of female facilities. Just googling the Equality Act is ridiculous, and obviously they didn’t read the guidance included in the Act that states discrimination against those with a PC of GR is allowed for privacy, dignity and safety of the opposite sex.

And if they had taken formal legal advice, rather than thinking they knew better, then they could have blamed and potentially sued their lawyers.

Maybe it’s because I’ve always had employment lawyers on retainer when I’ve run businesses because I never wanted to get bitten in the bum for not following policy, law or procedures.

I bet they’ll wish they had by the time the judgment is delivered.

He is such a great advert for Japan and the UK- he relishes every visit he goes on and never stops smiling. I guess I imagined being an Ambassador was a pretty dull political job, but he loves every minute.

It is astonishing isn't it. I imagine doctors feel similarly when patients cite Dr Google, but googling what the actual law is rather than asking a lawyer or indeed knowing it because it's part of your job sounds very much like the "6th best option".

Same here. Over the past few years I've used the word "mystifying" very many times in relation to this gender stuff. But there's no other way to describe it. NHS Fife is a large organisation and has 8,500 staff. It's not a start-up with four employees. In any situation where a staff member complained about another you would surely consult HR and if they didn't know, they would (surely?) consult a specialist lawyer. What you wouldn't do is simply suspend the complained-about staff member without any kind of investigation.

That's quite aside from the fact that they allowed Upton to use the women's changing room without troubling to find out if that was legal or not beforehand.

It's all mind-boggling.

@HereticMyrtleLion Unfortunately when you have a stonewall captured hospital that is part of a wider stonewall captured organisation, NHS Scotland, it’s likely your legal advice will also come from captured organisations. Let’s face it, JR is going to argue DrU was OK to use the female changing room.

You only have to see the number of legal professionals saying the SC judgement is wrong to realise it’s hard to turn around the TWAW mantra. Even the EHRC thought a GRC made TW female under the EA2010.

I suspect, as has been alluded to by others, DrU is a high maintenance employee who would have no hesitation in lodging grievances and everyone was treading on egg shells. No witness from Fife has shown any thought that the female staff may object, no one consulted them, no one even told them.

I worked for a large bank in the 80s and 90s. In the 80s, HR ruled Supreme, but there wasa big change in the mid 90s. One of my friends worked in HR there and I remember her explaining to me that their roles had now changed - they were very much expected to aid the various bank departments in what they wanted to do, rather than be a stand alone beacon of impartial, precise practice.

So, when hiring people, there was an understanding that sometimes the business wanted to recruit certain people and HR basically made it happen rather than set up a totally fair and impartial process. Same with sacking people.

HR no longer runs its own area of responsibility in most companies and organisations. Rather it responds to what the business areas want and helps them achieve it.

This is how we are not hearing much from HR or seeing robust interventions. They see what way the wind is blowing in the departments and look to support the managers rather than imposing "the right thing".

I rather hope DU faces a suspension while they investigate note tampering. Could he ever be trusted to make proper patient notes after this?

After all, suspension is a neutral act, so it doesn’t cast aspersions on his character until the fair and unbiased investigation by staff not involved as witnesses, has concluded. And NHS Fife would definitely do everything properly.

Love that!!

Name change for the new thread. 🧙

I’m now on my holidays and going to struggle to keep up this week. I’m hoping to keep my eyes peeled for closing submissions. I’m very curious to hear which route JR takes in terms of building her case.

For some reason I have been watching the Ambassador to the UK from Japan happily eat scones in front of a vase of daffodils and a mini Welsh Dragon. Clearly, as Reddit would argue, I've been groomed by the TERFs of Mumsnet.

From the various photos I’ve seen of his visits I think the man may live on a permanent sugar high.

Do you overwinter her cool? They need a dormant spell I believe.
(For some reason I’m working through this thread backwards)

DU could claim KS wrongly “instructed” him to use the female CR - except KS is adamant she didn’t “instruct” him - he told her he’d already been using the FCR in another placement in the same trust - not heard anyone ask if that’s true - he was initially registered under his other name post qualification - at some point her stopped using the mens and started using the women’s. Did he ever have permission? Did he ask? Presumably he used the mens for the entirety of his undergrad placements.

He could complain there was no written policy - but in this case surely he should have used the mens.

He could claim IB gave flawed advice, but as he was mithering KS to let him write policy and continued to use the FCR in absence of a policy he can hardly claim he didn’t know he was on thin ice.

He knew at least one women was unhappy (from his contemporaneous notes) but didn’t escalate to his line manager that he was getting push back and may need either alternative provision or for the female staff told to wind their necks in.

He should have mentioned the alleged patient safety incidents much earlier - he would have had many opportunities to talk to KS about it and didn’t take them. He’ll go to his grave saying they happened but it looks bad he didn’t say anything about any issues he had. If he went up against NHSF instead of on the same side they would be queueing up to say what an arsehole he was and how he hadn’t followed policy.

R.e. ignoring HR advice I don't understand why the unions are not protesting if it's staff are being suspended without proper process. You think they'd be starting/threatening more tribunal claims.

R.e. risk register NHS risk management processes are pretty shit tbf. I've done risk management in a previous role and it wouldn't fly. It'd safe lives if it was better 🤷‍♀️

Thanks so much @SidewaysOtter.

Guess what I am doing tomorrow 😂 making jam and well as tuning in to the latest antics of NHS Fife and Dr Uptonogood.

Are they shelf stable, or do they need to be fridged?
I enjoy vinegar pickles. Not keen on the ferments. Sauerkraut, yes. Fermented carrots, courgettes etc, no thanks.

I have some courgette to do in the recipe a PP mentioned. But tomorrow will do.