NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

@KnottyAuty if you use the Substack App try checking your notifications.

Edited for clarification re which app

Sam Brinton again?

Another case in Scotland but this time around the nurses’ union issues, springing from the refusal of the RCN to support SP.
Activist to sue civil service union claiming gender critical discrimination https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25342759.union-activist-sues-claiming-gender-critical-discrimination/?ref=twtrec

I think the reasons would have been that it was he who instigated the action against SP and she has been very clear from that start that he lied.

I was wondering this morning if one of the main reasons JR asked SP on the stand if he’s been added ‘out is spite’ is that if the panel find in SP favour then he will be fined himself and NHSF dont have to cover that if they choose not to and if the panel are convinced by the testimony that DU doctored his evidence.

Your comment about the different cohorts of T people is pertinent, I think. I really feel like the existence of different groups who have been force-teamed under the same umbrella has caused a lot of the BeKind narrative to be taken more seriously than maybe it would have been — and there are more articulate writers out there than me who have said that the forced teaming was on purpose because of this. Basically, the adult man with fetishes needs the vulnerable, autistic, maybe sexually-assaulted, gender-confused youth to be under the same umbrella as them because the vulnerable youth is so much more likely to elicit sympathy than the middle aged man who gets off on stealing used sanpro. Unsurprisingly. If the men are allowed to say “but we are both the same, us and the confused youth!” then they can also say “if you criticise me and my questionable behaviour, you are also criticising this vulnerable youth, and you would never do that, would you?”

Ie that both je and NHSF harasses and discriminated SP - not just NHSF.

Anyway, J wouldn’t have allowed it if spiteful!!!

I think we all instinctively appreciate that even if there are 30 women and 1 man the man’s view will have greater weight. This is why, I think KS who as completely abased herself in order to support DU also forwarded JD message of support to DU.

It would be a brave barrister who compelled a witness to attend court when she didn't know what evidence would be given. It goes back to the old legal adage that you don't ask a witness any question to which you don't know the answer.

I'm well behind on the previous thread but I'm seeing discussion about Sandie Peggie taking legal action against the RNC. If she starts a claim, and it's permitted to proceed by the court/tribunal, then it'll be up to her whether it continues, even if the RNC say they're willing to concede on all points.

One very big part of SP continuing in the face of a good offer to settle would be to make the RNC disclose the relevant emails, particularly internal ones and possible any between the RNC and NHSF. There might be gold in them thar disclosures.

I have 5 gift subscriptions (for a month I think) for Open Justice with Tribunal Tweets to share, if anyone would like one please PM me
ETA if I don't recognise your username i might be cautious, sorry

Would love to see those emails!

This topic reminds me that in cross, DU was questioned about emails/phone contact with BMA. Do we know if any of those emails made it into the bundle for this ET?

I think I have one if you PM me :)

I have to wait for a call tomorrow morning, so will be home & hovering over my phone. Normally this would be a pain in the a*, but now it feels like a luxury that will enable me to follow the thread & TT!

I’m gutted for what Sandie has been put through. However, this thread is Mumsnet & us wimin at our very best. No wonder Dr Update is so enraged that he’s not one of us.

You've detailed so well the crux of this ideology.

“if you criticise me and my questionable behaviour, you are also criticising this vulnerable youth, and you would never do that, would you?”

We've been played, none more so than our pliable, vulnerable, confused youth. Once you see it you really cannot unsee it. The late Magdalene Burns who on paper would be a left leaning, be kind, live and let live person saw right through it. The charlatans who saw £$ signs and grabbed the opportunities to monetise saw through it. The be kind population are going to take some time acknowledge the disaster that has taken place. How they can retract whilst saving face.

Dr Update! 😂

I can’t take the credit for Dr Update, saw it on this (another) thread.

Dr Upstart, Dr Uppity, Dr Upgrade - his name’s a gift really. (I didn’t include Upskirt ….. 🏃)

I saw written Dr Upton O'Good and thought spot on.

Ah! Thanks to this, I’ve just found my share tokens! Apologies to those who received a link to the free site. I now have 5 30 day free trial tokens. DM email addresses, promise I’ll delete as soon as I’ve sent!

Didn't somebody say on one of these threads that people can't be compelled to be a witness at an ET? If that's true, maybe what we're seeing yet again is simply that men find it easier to say no, because they're less likely to be condemned as selfish and stroppy for saying it.

Oh thanks can you send to @TwoLoonsAndASprout please?!

Gah! I subscribed 2 years ago to a GCSE English YouTuber for DS’ exams. It looks like I can’t get any tokens to share - sorry folks

Is Mr Borwick's exclamation mark the equivalent of a judge expressing 'surprise'?
Finding the phone stuff absolutely mind boggling. It seems implausible that someone would go to these lengths to mis-date such inane notes. So Peggie responded to the person who asked her the question and didn't doff her hat to the good doctor? And? So he went back and added the name of the nurse when he learned it? And? Why lie about that?

Sounds like he's done something odd. Is it possible he's used a third party app to port note data in? So the last edited date written into the notes is as per what was fed to the third party app, and the create date is when it was ported in? And he's ported in a few additional notes as cover or practice.

Wish I could see the data. More to the point, wish the forensic expert could have seen the files then we would know one way or the other. I would like to know for example when he started using the notes app, and what other notes he takes. Was he taking notes before that August, and if so of what? Or are those funny dated ones the first?

The pasting screenshots over other screenshots bit sounds so implausible. Upton's own stupid fault if it's not true though, if he'd let them look at his phone properly then we would know and nobody would be able to question this evidence.

Do you really think DU is going to have the stomach for his own ET after this? If the discrimination claim is found against DU - and as SP is cleared of misconduct- I can’t see that he’s got a case? Even before we get to the evidence tampering and not being wholly truthful on the stand… surely not?!?

Yes, as for several other posters, @merrymouse focussed something that had been swilling around in my mind.
The two categories of people who would say that sex differences never really matter:
The sort of man who not only can walk away from the consequences (because he's a man) but would walk away from the consequences (because what happens to a woman doesn't matter to him).
The sort of woman who knows that they matter, is terrified by it, and is shoving it under the rug so she doesn't have to face it.

Nah! I'm waiting to see him having an attack of the vapours and being 'helped from the court by his supporters'. I hope he makes sure they are good sturdy ones because he isn't small.

It's all about the performance.