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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #42

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 10:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
nauticant · 25/07/2025 10:56

Witnesses in the hearing so far with skeleton chronology:

Monday, 3 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Tuesday, 4 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Wedneday, 5 February 2025
Sandie Peggie
Maya Forstater
Mr Peggie (Sandie Peggie's husband)
Nicole Peggie (Sandie Peggie's daughter)

Thursday, 6 February 2025
a row about disclosure particularly over BMA documents
Sheila Bell (Sandie Peggie's mum)
Beth Upton

Friday, 7 February 2025
very late start, massive row over disclosure, agreed that Beth Upton would start giving evidence on Monday

Monday 10 February 2025
Beth Upton

Tuesday 11 February 2025
Beth Upton
collapse of public access

Wednesday 12 February 2025
Beth Upton

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

a break of many months

Wednesday 16 July 2025
Isla Bumba

Thursday 17 July 2025
Gillian Malone

Friday 18 July 2025
Elspeth Pitt
Louise Curran
the omnishambles ending provided by the statement from NHS Fife

Monday 21 July 2025
a late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Lottie Myles

Tuesday 22 July 2025
another late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Kate Searle

Wednesday 23 July 2025
another late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Lauren Harris
Kate Searle

Thursday 24 July 2025
Angela Glancy
during AG's testimony there was a row over NC's entitlement to use correct-sex pronouns
Ann Hamilton (scheduled but might change)

Friday 25 July 2025
Peter Donaldson
Jim Borwick
Maggie Currer

OP posts:
nauticant · 25/07/2025 10:59

This is a list of Abbreviations used by Tribunal Tweets and has been taken from their substack

Claimant, respondents, counsel, members of the court

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
Rs – first and second respondents
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for respondents
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members; CM Russell, L Brown

Witnesses/Frequently Referenced Personnel of NHS Fife

MF - Maya Forstater, CEO of Sex Matters
DP - Darren Peggie, Claimant's husband
NP - Nicole Peggie, Claimant's daughter
SB - Sheila Bell, Claimant's mother
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
IB – Isla Bumba, NHS Fife Equality and Diversity Lead Officer
KS - Kate Searle, A&E consultant
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up in SP investigation
VV – Vic Valentine, Equality Network

Abbreviations for frequently used terms (not exhaustive)

AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
CR - changing room
CX – complaint
DX - disciplinary procedure or process
FtP - fitness to practice
GC /SR: gender critical or sex realists. Belief that biological sex is important, immutable and different from gender identity
GI – Gender identity is a person's internal sense of their own gender, which may or may not align with their birth sex.
HI - hate incident
HR - Human Rights
IX - investigation
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule, policy, or practice that can put people at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employer's actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
TM – transman (person born female who claims a male gender identity)
TMAM - transmen are men
TW – Transwoman (person born male who claims a female gender identity)
TWAW - transwomen are women
OfS - Once for Scotland
EA - Equality Act 2010
PC - protected characteristic; 9 under EA
RA - risk assessment

OP posts:
nauticant · 25/07/2025 11:10

Anyone who has been following this will be aware of the incredible work Tribunal Tweets have been doing, especially after livestreaming was ended for most of the observers. Added to this, it seems they've managed the fight the corner for continuing public access very effectively.

For anyone looking to provide financial assistance to a group involved in this clash between women's rights and gender ideology, Tribunal Tweets would be a good cause. As far as I know the way to do that is to subscribe to their Substack, I don't think that one-off donations can be made. If I'm wrong on that, please correct me.

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/

OP posts:
Chariothorses · 25/07/2025 11:10

Just putting the transcript of Upton's phone notes on this new thread too as it's being discussed - you can read the rest of the Herald's free blog on their website.

10:52am
It's hard to keep up with this without seeing the analysis by Mr Borthwick that the laywers are asking Mr Donaldson about
What we do have is the content of Dr Upton's 'weird incident' notes as they appear in the bundle. This is our Political Editor Andrew Learmonth's transcript.

A weird incident. 26/08/23
Nurse Sandie Peggy walked into changing room while I was changing. Looked taken aback. I said, hey. She said, hi. Then abruptly walked out. Once I got changed, I left the changing room and she was waiting outside. She then entered the changing room despite having witnessed another doctor enter. In the meantime, I know from hearing this other doctor mention it that she and the nurse had a conversation in the changing room. All very odd. Can't help but feel slightly off, upset, put off by this, disappointed as appears that she chose not to enter because of me and didn't think I belonged there. Sad times.
25/10/23
She did it again. Sandie was in the changing room, and I walked in Christina, consultant came in too. Christina, and I chatting. Presumably Sandie left, as I then found her waiting outside to go back. And once I left, didn't even say hi. Weird.
18/12/23
working nights. One week, eye contact. One acknowledge my presence, not a direct conversation. Yet I can feel this dismissal hostility. Needed to ask Sandy a question about child patient left before being seen as she triaged him, couldn't find her. HCA, Rihanna offered to look for her. Both came back. Rihanna asked Sandy of any concerns. Were both in front of me. Sandy didn't look at or otherwise engage with me. Responded. She had no concerns. I said, thanks. I needed to know for the letter, she did not acknowledge Me, either through words or eye contact, and left her area.
25/12/23
Leaving shifts at midnight. I say goodbye to everyone, including in rhesus, where Sandie is, she starts at 7pm so it's the middle of her shift, me and Shwayts and Fiona ENP, in the changing room. We're all chatting. Sandie comes in, chats a bit to Fiona. I think this is weird, as Sandie hates being in the changing room with me, but whatever Shwayts leaves.
I go to the bathroom. Fiona leaves. Leave toilet, and she's still hovering. Start washing my hands, and she says she doesn't think it's appropriate that I use the changing room. Says she feels intimidated by me. Says this is woman's changing room, and lots of others feel this way.
I explain, I'm very sorry she feels intimidated but I've been told I can change here. She keeps telling me she finds me intimidating. Says she understands I'm going through some process, but I'm not a woman and can't be in here.
She asked me, What are your chromosomes? I explained, I'm sorry she's intimidated, but I'm a woman, and I'm allowed to use this space if she has concerns, could she please raise them fromally as do not think this most appropriate time or place for this conversation.
She continues to tell me she's intimidated. Lots of people are talking about it and are all intimidated. She tells me I'm not a woman. I say, no one else has raised concern with me, but I told that if they had concerns they should raise them formally through the proper channels.
She stated, maybe she's only one who feels able to. she tells me she won't change in front of men. Tells me she's a bad history of men. I say, I understand and sympathise. She cuts me off and says, I don't understand and I don't sympathise enough, or I wouldn't' be changing here.
I again state I'm sorry she's intimidated, but I do not want to have this conversation here. I don't think it's appropriate. If she or others have concerns, they should raise it formally. I tell her, I'm not sure what I can do to resolve this. I'm sorry she feels intimidated.
She tells me I should not change here. She tells me woman to have a right to feel safe. She says it's just like that person in prisons.
I again, tell her this is not an appropriate time. I do not wish to talk to her about it now. I don't think a discussion between two people the end of a long shift is productive or the best way to resolve this.
She will not let it go. We go back and forth a few times, each time I repeat my previous statement about appropriate channels and formal conversation. Eventually, she tells me she will raise this.
I leave. I am distraught. I immediately go to find Elspeth. I explained through tears what's happened in the background. I explained, I understand her fears. I sympathised, but I feel attacked and cornered.
I explained, this is the first time I've experienced anything like this in person.
Elspeth tells me she is sorry, that I am not a difficult person, nor am I being difficult. Elspeth is kind and supportive. We agree she will speak to Kate Searle and Esther SCN.
I have time to decide on what I want to do about this. Agree this is an unacceptable way to behave, and personal attacks are wrong. Acknowledge lack of NHS Fife policy, but consultant team are behind me on this.
28/12/23
Supposed to be in with Niamh as a buddy system. Niamh's train cancelled. Enter changing room. Sarah reg and Zoe nurse there somebody in the loo, inevitably it's Sandie. Zoe leaving. Sarah steps into bathroom so I having just taken off my shoes, pick up all my stuff and leave immediately. In just my socks take refuge in the plaster room. I'm sure she noticed, but I'm not giving her the chance to try anything. Got changed in

myplace · 25/07/2025 11:12

Does Niamh as a buddy system mean effectively DU was also under supervision, as Sandie was? That would be comforting.

Signalbox · 25/07/2025 11:13

Has the sound gone?

eatfigs · 25/07/2025 11:13

If he changed the date and time on his phone to a few months in the past and then edited the note, that could be another explanation as to why the creation date is in October and the modification date is in August.

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 11:14

Signalbox · 25/07/2025 11:13

Has the sound gone?

loss of audio, break 10-15mins

myplace · 25/07/2025 11:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

myplace · 25/07/2025 11:15

Dunno how that happened. Asked for delete.

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 11:15

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 11:14

loss of audio, break 10-15mins

Edited

so time to read the transcript of DrU's notesSmile

Jerabilis · 25/07/2025 11:17

myplace · 25/07/2025 11:12

Does Niamh as a buddy system mean effectively DU was also under supervision, as Sandie was? That would be comforting.

No, just that Sandie was so terrifying that Upton couldn't be expected to enter the hospital on his own

BezMills · 25/07/2025 11:17

From TT

CE - on this qu 1720 is relevant, documentary record says not possible
JR -
PD - would you like to comment?
JR - suggests you didn't
PD - was there all the time
JR - back to 1659 rh column, have you read? Your views?
PD - google orders by time as default, however can

PD - be moved, but not here
JR - UCAT pip 30th august date.....
J - loss of audio, 5-10 mins break.

BREAK

Fifer : sha bastart. Sorry mlaird for any intemperate language n that ye * ye a mean mlaird.

GCITC · 25/07/2025 11:17

The man with the remote turned everyone off at home. I imagine this is what I thought happened to people in the TV when you turned it off at night.

Appalonia · 25/07/2025 11:17

Not really understanding the techie stuff!

Lins77 · 25/07/2025 11:17

If Dr U is watching this I bet he is sweating.

Boiledbeetle · 25/07/2025 11:18

IT is trying to sort sound issue I think

ItsCoolForCats · 25/07/2025 11:18

My takeaway from DU's phone notes is that he sounds absolutely INSUFFERABLE.

Mmmnotsure · 25/07/2025 11:20

@nauticant Thank you for enabling all of this; you are a wonder.

@BezMills No idea what your job is, but if you are not in comedy/media you are wasted.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 25/07/2025 11:20

Lins77 · 25/07/2025 11:17

If Dr U is watching this I bet he is sweating.

Whenever it gets exciting, I always think of how Sandie's mum is feeling, and hope she is really enjoying every twist and turn as her daughter is vindicated!

ThatCyanCat · 25/07/2025 11:20

ItsCoolForCats · 25/07/2025 11:18

My takeaway from DU's phone notes is that he sounds absolutely INSUFFERABLE.

I'm struggling to follow it.

Canijustsayonething · 25/07/2025 11:21

DU's phone notes....the conversation had in the F CR is very descriptive isn't it; compared to the other notes taken...obviously it's this element of his phone notes that he has embellished for purposes of the tribunal.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/07/2025 11:22

Does anyone else think that the description of SP's behaviour as described in the transcribed phone notes isn't particularly awful?

CheeseChamp · 25/07/2025 11:22

It sounds like the notes were moved, which meant a new creation date, but a last edited date in the past. It is weird the 'forensic' IT guy wouldn't know that.

Definitely stacks up to make unreliable evidence though so hopefully sticks

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 25/07/2025 11:22

Just keeping up.

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