NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #42

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

Yes, if a witness is found to be untruthful on one point, they are less likely to be believed on others. If the tribunal accepts the forensic evidence, Upton's credibility will be seriously damaged.

Whether Upton's account was true isn't necessarily relevant in deciding the case against Fife. As some people have found out to their cost, an employer can dismiss an employee they reasonably believe is stealing, even if it is subsequently proven that the employee was innocent. So the question for SP's action against Fife is not whether Upton's account was true. It is whether their actions were reasonable and complied with relevant legislation, etc.

Not to mention the vast amounts of public money being spent defending this.
But never mind, John Swinney has complete faith in NHS Fife!

I misread that (brain fog) and thought you were suggesting couriering a bottle of mad dog 20:20 to NC.

I was wondering how that would help matters 😆

100% agree.

Given they can buy them off dodgy online Drs, with many private GPs being proven to have worked outside clinical guidelines for age of patients, suitable dosage and evidence of actual clinical necessity for years.... No.

As far as he was concerned he was permitted to be there by his employer, of course most reasonable people would leave and give her some privacy (regardless of being male or female) but if he’s been told it’s a place for him to change then that’s where he’s going to be.

After being told repeatedly he didn’t want to have the conversation and telling her to take it up with both their employer, it becomes harassing to keep going. It was midnight for them both.

If someone raised an issue with me and I wasn’t in a place at that time to discuss it, and told the person that, and suggested they raise it through whatever organisational process, I’d expect them to stop.

She didn’t deserve everything that then followed, and common courtesy would say you’d leave someone to deal with a heavy menstrual bleed in private but keeping on at someone when you’ve been asked to stop isn’t ok.

It doesn't sit comfortably with me that if a witness is found to be untruthful about one thing they can be considered less reliable on others, but yet that doesn't apply to lying about their sex.

But what is she supposed to do? Return to the corridor dripping blood?

I find it distinctly odd that we had a poster trying to derail an earlier thread with entirely irrelevant posting about DSDs and now we have had a witness larding her testimony with irrelevant descriptions of DSDs.

Are DSDs going to be the subject of the red bull squirrels weekend press releases?

From Dr Upton's evidence, if nothing else, we know that in other circumstances she would have waited until he left.

But he did have a way of addressing it. He apologises and uses the men’s changing room in future. Simple

This would make excellent wrapping paper.

Clearly Uptons chromosomes should have been tested if it was a discussion in court. Maybe the results could have been wrapped in that paper.

DH has a mitochondrial disease and has been following the 3 person embryo, he goes to that department in Newcastle for reviews. They’re a really amazing team.

Mummy 'son' pictures. She gave birth to to two daughters.

For those watching it live. Does anyone think he can process how he bullied Sandie or is if fully delusional and actually believes she was wrong by not constantly checking he was ok?

Bez said at the start that he's 'no a lassie'. A very welcome no-a-lassie he is too.

Thank you. I've gone back, re-read and you're correct. I had missed it.

https://www.bmj.com/content/390/bmj.r1574

BMJ reporting on the case now. I don't have access so can only read the start

Sorry but I disagree with this. I'd someone is making you feel threatened and vulnerable you should not stop telling them until they stop. Sandie told DU that she felt uncomfortable with him there. He continued to harass her by refusing to leave (as you rightly said any decent person would). So she had every right to defend herself and continue to ask him to leave.

By your standards we'd be harassing rapists if we continued to ask them to stop

Even with that in mind, they still look cooked to me, but I guess one never can tell with the law.

Perhaps there needs to be a further forensic investigation to try to determine who made the changes to the files?

Wait until he left - which I’m assuming is what she did do after their conversation. Continuing to labour how unhappy she was that he was there wouldn’t hasten his leaving.

The record doesn’t say she asked if he could leave because she wanted to attend to her bleeding, whereby any reasonable person would have left, she objected on the grounds of his sex and in the current climate that was always going to result in push back.

It’s possible to support SP and her action - she’s been treated appallingly - while also recognising that her approach to him wasn’t great.

No, it’s so it gives employees the chance to have the natural emotions anyone would have and process them over the weekend.

We always issued Promotion results in a Friday and those who were unsuccessful were told they could go home and be credited for the time.

Well if the squirrels have red bull, it would only be fair. 😂

And following on from that, there's been comments made about SP not expressing herself well/clearly in the Christmas Eve incident.

I know that before in a general, non confrontational conversation with people about this whole subject, I have found myself getting flustered with trying to explain the scope of the whole thing.

I can absolutely see her, in that uncomfortable situation with a male doctor flatly refusing to leave the room because he feels he is entitled to be there, while she's aware she needs to deal with the period situation and get back to work, getting flustered about what to say and going into stuff about chromosomes etc.

I think she was remarkably restrained. I would have had to stop myself shouting 'you're a man! Will you just FUCK OFF!!' at him.

She objected on the grounds of his sex which the Supreme Court says is correct- single sex facilities are for SS.

I'm not sure how comfortable I would be telling a man who is claiming to be a woman that I'm bleeding.