"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

It’s abuse. Flat out abuse. Abuse of power. Abuse of trust. And if the exam continues it’s assault - plain and simple.

To put patients in this position is unethical and Upton should be struck off for even thinking it’s ok.

‘Lived sex’ 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Hey! The rabbit hole’s that way.

It means women who have religious beliefs that prevent them sharing facilities with biological males lose access to those facilities.

It causes trauma for some women who have experienced sexual assult to be in a vulnerable position in a confined space with a biological male - as you mention a form of psychological torture.

There's no compromise for these women if they lose a single sex space.

Trans women can have spaces for trans women. That doesn't refute that they are trans, it confirms it.

Its a very shallow belief if their understanding of their gender can be shaken by using gender neutral or the correct sex public toilets.

It’s laughable.

Men have zero idea what being a woman is like. Hell, half the time even if they're told what a woman’s experience is like it’s waved away as some sort of ridiculous hysteria.
Just as Tandora has done consistently…

being trans is not a “belief”.

I don't know whether it is still a thing, but back in the nineties and even earlier, there were people in the United States (usually white) claiming to be Native American. Some did it by bigging up or inventing an ancestral link; some said they "felt they were really" NA. It was a sufficiently common phenomenon to royally piss off some of the actual Native Americans, who had a name for them: they called them "Wannabees".

A few made a career out of their chosen identity, but the majority were clearly not in it for material gain. So of course, there was discussion as to why it was happening. The consensus seemed to be that it was a combination of liberal guilt feelings about colonisation - leading to people positioning themselves as having an ancestral right to be where they were, and as not carrying inherited guilt - plus a romanticised idea of Native Americans (with some truth at the core) as living physically and spiritually in harmony with nature, which appealed to people concerned about human impact on the environment. Plus, of course, the enduring aesthetic appeal of feathers, beadwork and buckskins to people bored and jaded with mainstream fashions.

So people can absolutely get caught up in claiming an "oppressed" identity if their real identity becomes uncomfortably associated with oppression. I've seen the same thing with some people hellbent on not being English, who either dig out some Scottish, Welsh or Irish ancestor from their family tree, or failing that, fall back on "feeling Celtic".

God I can’t just keep responding to the same points over and over again.

Being trans has nothing to do with any “idea” of what “being a woman is”. This is not what being trans is.

I need to cook dinner now.

Cloudyblueglass

Absolutely. I have a friend who’s currently a long stay patient in a local hospital. She’s in a female ward, many of the patients are very elderly, very unwell & vulnerable.

When visiting a few weeks ago she pointed to a male trainee nurse. She said that’s the one who’s trans, he says he’s transitioning, I think he’s a man. I said yes, he is a man (don’t ask me how I knew, too many dimensions!)

He, along with all the other staff there was extremely nice; kind, caring & friendly. But he was a man, so not the HCP that should arrive at the bedside of a woman who has requested same sex care. If he feels offended that he’s not perceived as a woman by an actual woman, well, too bad, that’s a cheque that can’t be cashed. If he ignores her request for same sex care he would indeed be committing assault.

Well what is it then?

Excellent . So we’ve established that trans women are not women, they are trans.

Fantastic.

Now we can all get on and stop this charade - and women can be free to say ‘I don’t care what you’re wearing or how you feel in your head, this is a women’s space and you are intruding’ without fear of assault, losing theif jobs, being arrested and questioned by an over zealous police force who had the stonewall training and my employer can stop telling me to turn the other cheek or be re-educated by HR

Huzzah!

PS - what are you having? Veggie curry here

You don’t accept that transwomwn using female spaces harms women but you expect us to accept that them not using them harms them ? Love the asymmetry there - men’s feelings are real and matter? Women can piss off

I’m glad you finally said it!

Exactly. Even if we accepted Tandora's idea of everyone having their own 'truth' (massive eye roll), it is always the transwoman's 'truth' that takes priority. Everyone else's truth is hurtful, bigoted and cruel.

I know it can seem like a waste of time but when I first came on FWR I lurked for a while to see what gender ideologists were actually saying, in case I had really misunderstood their case. Like many others, I was open to a rational, scientific explanation. Indeed I was fervently hoping for one, so that I could forget about my fears for women's spaces and child safeguarding. Eventually I became bold enough to post my own questions because I couldn't quite believe that the ideology was so shallow, unscientific and male-centred. I needed to check that it was not a matter of just not having asked the right sort of question.
However, after many such interactions it is clear that this is all they have. A sort of pseudo-science which tries to emulate hard science with jargon and circular reasoning.
So I think these threads serve a purpose for those who want to test their understanding of the ideology, though I also feel their disappointment and frustration when they realise it is all smoke and mirrors. There are two types of GI poster. The Judith Butler types who think that because words have the power to alter social reality, they can also be used to alter material reality... and the men who just want to overcome women and children's safeguarding. Sometimes it is hard to tell the two apart

So trans isn’t an idea or a belief it’s the person’s truth.

So, I’m not a grown woman, I’m a 14 year old girl. In which case I shall be returning to secondary school, joining the Guides & doing a 14-16 year old summer dance school.

Age is complex & multi dimensional, it’s a spectrum. If a tree falls in an empty forest does it make a sound? If I grow up alone on a desert island with no concept or measurement of time how old am I, have I aged ?🤔

Luckily the above is complete bollocks, so I won’t be dismantling the safeguarding of minors by trying to identify into their age category, despite it being ‘my truth.’ As that would of course make me a selfish, reality denying threat to the dignity, privacy & safety of others. Funnily enough ‘my truth’ doesn’t trump any of that.

It was literally sanctioned by their prime minister.

Trans people have the same right to protection from discrimination as everyone else, which is as it should be. I don't agree with Kellie-Jay Keen about everything. I don't agree with anyone about everything. But surely you agree that the violence against her and other women was unacceptable?

Make up your mind.

You say Dr Utpon understands himself to be female. Thats a belief based on his idea of what female means to him and his feelings.

Its not based on anything that anyone else can observe or confirm. Therefore its a belief.

UK numbers:

There are nearly 2 million Muslim women - about 3.2 percent of the population

It's estimated 1 in 30 women in the UK have been sexually assaulted. 798,000 women across England and Wales every year. So about 3.33 percent of the population experience.

In the year ending March 2024, an estimated 7.8% of women in England and Wales aged 16 and over had experienced rape, including attempts, since the age of 16 - that's about 2.5 million women.

In England and Wales, approximately 47,572 individuals identified as trans women in the 2021 census, which is around 0.1% of the population.

Even if just a fraction - say 10 percent of the muslim women are observant enough to need men free spaces, and 10 percent of the women who have sexual assault trauma are triggered by male bodies in vulnerable spaces, then that's 450,000 women who need a single sex space and who will be harmed by not having one.

And that's a conservative estimate it could easily be 25 percent, 1,125,000, or 50 percent 2.25 million women.

Less than 50,000 trans women can be accommodated by a third space option to keep those who need single sex space - of which there are millions - safe.

I started off the same way, and learned quickly that it’s just another way to subjugate women.

It is a complete refutation of the fact that they are trans

On the contrary. It affirms their trans status to treat them differently to the sex they want to be.

This is the same great contradiction: "trans" is apparently affirmed by being blind to it, and pretending it doesn't exist. By making separate provisions for trans identifying people, it is claimed that they are being erased.

It is quite literal nonsense.

Honestly, you are hell bent on giving away any protections women\females have by including men in their sex category. Why would you want this?
I’m genuinely upset by what you are writing.

I'm sorry if this is a bit unpleasant, but it is relevant:
A piece of abuse that keeps getting hurled at women who defend single sex spaces, online and at demos etc, is the phrase "Suck my girl dick!"
Anybody using that phrase is by implication claiming a trans identity, because it makes no sense in any other context.
So do you accept those people as trans, because they say they are?
Do you think they are fit to be in spaces where women are vulnerable?
If not, how do we let the ok ones in and keep the suck-my-girl-dicks out?
My personal opinion is that anyone who speaks to a woman like that belongs in a slurry-pit rather than a ladies' toilet, but that's just my opinion.

Tandora doesn’t care about it.

It’s dreadful.

Isla Bumba in 2025, in her late 20s, might have her chromosomes tested & discover them to be XY?

Having blithely ignored her complete lack of female puberty for nearly 2 decades? Not had a momentary concern about not having periods, 15 years after this would normally trigger investigation?

@Tandorayou are absolutely full of the proverbial