"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

And again to add. I want those 50,000 trans women in the UK to have a safe place to pee and change. I don't want them to be forced to pee in the male toilets if they don't want to.

But I don't want the millions of women who will be harmed by losing single sex toilets or changing rooms to suffer either. Compromising the needs of these women is not acceptable to me.

One thing all people who commit rape have in common is that they’re male - even the males who think they’re female.

Tandora doesn’t care.

Equality - singular…

you can keep repeating the idea that Upton has xy chromosomes and knows he’s female but it will never make it true.

This particular post absolutely enrages me. Why you think a woman not wanting to have to get changed in front of a man is transphobic just shows what an absolute fucking woman-hater you are.
Upton is a man who gets his thrills from pretending he’s a woman, and woe betide anyone who gets in the way of his fetish. He’s lied, he’s altered evidence, he’s made up things to punish a woman who would now now down to him. He deserves no sympathy and certainly doesn’t have the right to practice his fetish in public.
Shame on you.

BTW - I never got an answer when I asked @tandoraif green people had assaulted Tandora’s daughter, what wouod happen when the green people insisted they were now purple and Tandora’s daughter needed to adjust their perception of the colour ‘green’ ….

Then they are a fucking deluded sexual predator and should not be practising medicine.

Why are you advocating for these men to be allowed unfettered access to assault unconsenting females? It beggars belief.

Nothing you have said is supported by law.

I would say that this is distinctly different from what we see with trans people.

Of course some people can feel a connection with a heritage if they have ancestry and wish to explore that. That has quite a serious background as well of course because there were notions of the 'one drop of blood' rule in America, or the 'one Jewish grandparent' rule in Naxi Germany. So that concept and relatedness has been used at different times in history.

Those people wishing to assert those identities however did not do it in the contexts in time where they would experience discrimination and hostility - they did this at a time and in a context when there are only gains and positives to be experienced. For example, access to scholarship programs perhaps.

This is in direct contrast to trans people today, who assert an enduring trans identity despite all the hostility, discrimination and abuse that they know will be coming their way.

You may think that. I couldn’t possibly comment.

I’ve carried out an advanced search on your posts to locate all the occasions where you’ve tried to set out and explain what it is to be trans in multiple ways, but all I can see is the repeated mantra that trans women are women, they’re not men, they were assigned male at birth but they’re women but nothing to explain what it is to be trans.

Hostility and abuse that they could easily avoid if they didn’t try to bully and coerce women into shutting up and putting up. if they had just tried to live a normal life without kicking up a fuss that they deserved special treatment

they raised its profile by asking for more than anyone else , and as a result the injustice and mistreatment of women became clear in people’s conscious

and when you mistreat people you are more likely for people to react badly. No one likes an abuser and abuse is what sections of the trans community have thrown at women.

but let’s be clear / it’s not generally women and feminists being abusive. Here we are trying to reason with you. Trying to understand.

A transwoman will never need to see a gynaecologist or attend a women's hospital...even if they have found a lump in their implant. Gynae and women's departments deal with the female reproductive system and female biology. A TW who has an issue with their surgery would need to see either their gender surgeon or whoever prescribed them hormones. and I,m pretty sure this is what a gynae or women's health specialist would advise.

A neo vagina is not a female organ...it is a blind fistula.

I see an attempt to redefine things. In the beginning there were men and women. The men are all and only those who identify as men, and the women are all and only those who feel identify as women. Most, but not all of the men have the same kind of body - the kind of body that has a penis. And most - but not all - of the women have the same kind of body - the kind of body that has ovaries.

It is to be no longer the case that you are a man or a woman depending on what body you have, but the type of body you have is an afterthought.

There is no definition of sex. It's a logical primitive, like the number zero. Things flow from it but there is nothing that allows it to be determined. It simply "is".

Women challenging men in women’s only spaces is in no way hostility and abuse, though.

You make a good point but then the equivalent could be someone like Isla Bryant where some people, including Nicola Sturgeon, have said might be masquerading as a woman, presumably to gain the advantage of a female prison over a male one.

The big difference with the two scenarios is that it's possible to prove or disprove the validity of the claim to a racial heritage.

Edit for spelling.

nothing Tandora has said here is supported by science either.

trans ppl can understand themselves to be female but it’s not true. Its imagined.

and no one has to accept it either.

indeed, its very important that its understood that transwomen are male for their own health care.

it’s very important that trans men are understood as female, in order to claim all the health and legal protections such as maternity care.

All of this post modernistic, post - truth stuff has its place..but that place is not in any public setting which relies on objective, measurable reality to organise itself, and especially a healthcare setting.

If you don't believe in objective truth, how can you call yourself a scientist?

Whose truth are you looking for when you design an experiment? if your truth isn't the same as my truth, why bother with the experiment at all? Just write up what your truth is.

How far does Dr. Upton's right to his own truth extend?

it’s ideology

Tandora isn’t a scientist - it’s obvious. They won’t even say what ‘field’ they are ij as it’s too ‘identifying’.

it is clear that the scientific method is anathema to whatever ‘field’ Tandora ‘works’ in.

I think it's important to remember that not every poster is here in good faith. Some posters aren't actually here to educate or convince. They sometimes don't actually believe what they are saying, and in fact if we were to take them at their word, not only would they be harming women, but they would also be harming trans identified people too (for example: when they advocate for obscuring sex in a medical setting which would result in trans identified peoples deaths through wrong sex health care).

The sort of poster I am talking about doesn't actually care about "trans rights" however they frame said rights, and just join these discussions because they enjoy upsetting women in any way they can.

It absolutely is upsetting to think that someone posting in good faith would be somehow so blind to the harms which are caused by their ideology, it's upsetting to realise how many men don't care about women's rights and that many women would sleepwalk their way into giving women's rights away. However, I find any upset I might normally feel vanishes when it becomes obvious that a poster is not posting in good faith, and especially when it becomes clear they have set out with the intent to upset women.

It's still really important to push back against this harmful anti-women ideology regardless of its source, hopefully, as a PP said, a flood of new lurkers will be reading these threads, weighing up the arguments in their minds and coming to their own conclusions.

You don't think there are advantages to asserting a trans identity?

That sexual predators within the prison system certaiy saw an advantage

It's previously been asserted than being transgender is different and somehow more legitimate than people being transage - but humans have been trying to alter their age for thousands of years - trying to find the elixir of youth is a common theme in myths and literature going back to Herodotus. Common themes of anti-aging and the restoration of youth exist in many cultures. So identifying as being an age at odds with one's biological age is common throughout recorded human history. Why are we not legally allowed to change out age? Why is being transage less legitimate than being transgender - which is a very recent phenomenon. Early instances of people disguising their sex are pretty well all explained by people concealing same sex attraction or women seeking a way into male only professions or inheritance, or avoiding sexual assault.