"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

The horrifying things being said were being said by the poster being discussed.

Well at least “traitor to her own sex” and “doesn’t deserve to have a daughter” are originals 😆

Good morning @Tandora

Don't answer the many questions your posts raise, pop up to pick up on the odd post that gives you something you can use to claim everyone attacks you / attacks TW. Yep, true to form.

Looking forward to the endless replays of those two quotes every time a thread goes somewhere you don't like.

FWIW, I don't agree with those posts. I think there's more than enough to criticise in the content of your emotive, illogical and poorly evidenced posts. And your failure to engage with hard questions about them shows that you know that as well.

I also don't agree with your unpleasant assertion on the previous thread that the only reason women (original female sense) want woman only spaces to be based on physical sex rather than mental gender is misunderstanding and prejudice directed at trans people.

So I guess the mud you get comes because you throw mud first.

But despite your lazy prejudices against Feminists, I know have no more bad feeling towards trans women than any other men.

I simply believe being female bodied in a society that is still culturally and structurally shaped by Patriarchy carries consequences, and those consequences are meaningful enough to those who suffer from them to justify having language that refers specifically to us as both a social and legally meaningful group and connects us to our cultural and global history, the right to speak openly about what it is to be us even if that excludes trans women, the right as individual women to disagree that trans women significantly more like us than other men regardless of what other individual women may feel, and from time to time the right to have physical or cultural spaces and services that are for us only where we can escape from the relentless weight of being female is a world that prioritises male, where we can share our experiences without having them monitored or reframed for us by a male perspective, and where we can support each other and learn from each other.

Because I have the radical belief that female people, of the boring unspecial kind that can be easily recognised at birth and every day of their life thereafter, are also worth caring about.

In what way are you not a traitor to your own sex?
You probably think you’re progressive but because of women like you promoting the destruction of single sex provision, other women will self exclude. This includes ethnic minority women, religious women and abused women. Your posts show that you think that a man saying he is a woman is more important than any of these women.
So progressive.

A trans woman cannot be reduced to "a man saying he is a woman". That is not a reasonable characterisation of what it is to be trans, and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.

Trans women are not threats. They are not a threat to woman: ethnic minority, religious, abused or otherwise.

You keep saying this but you can’t back it up with anything. In what way does a man become a woman? And why do you not give a shit about actual women?

What is you evidence that trans identifying men are any less of a threat than other men?

At what point do you think their threat level drops?

I don't think my lovely father-in-law, my very nice neighbour or the upstanding father of three I work with are rapists but I don't want to shower in front of them or have them shower in front of me. Nothing to do with hate or fear or my being phobic. So what is fundamentally different about transwomen that means I should be accommodating of their male bodies in female spaces?

Except of course for all the recorded incidents where transwomen were indeed a threat to women.
You have never provided us with any explanation what "trans" means or any evidence that it is anything else than a mental health issue, and no DSDs have nothing to do with trans.

To the contrary I've spend hours and hours on this site carefully and thoughtfully trying to explain it in the most accessible way that I can.

However, most posters (who are engaged on this topic on mumsnet) are so entrenched in their prejudices and fantasies about trans people that they just simply are not willing to listen or to consider.

Instead, they retort with the most vicious and personal insults in attempt to portray me as the devil. And yet for some reason they want to continue to talk to me - I'm not sure exactly why that is?

No, you don't. If any of my students/colleagues would write a report/thesis with a similar lack of actual evidence I'd send it back and ask them if it was meant to be a joke.

What is you evidence that trans identifying men are any less of a threat than other men?

Violence against women and girls is not a natural phenomenon driven by chromosomes.

Violence against women and girls is a social problem, rooted in inequality, power, misogyny and patriarchy.

No you haven’t. You’ve just repeated your nonsense views without any evidence. And why are you the expert on what it is to be Trans? Are you like Layla Moran and can see trans people’s souls?

I’ve given my opinion on women who put men first and you’ve taken that as a personal insult. Does the cap fit?

Thank you for your feedback.

You're welcome :)

Except of course for all the recorded incidents where transwomen were indeed a threat to women

There are criminals of all characteristics and all walks of life. Some of these happen to be white, black, brown, have long hair, blue eyes, one arm, etc. The existence of some criminals who happen to be trans, says nothing about trans people as a group.

@Tandora How do we tell the difference between a true trans and Isla Bryson?

So some of them are a threat then? Even though you constantly tell us they are not?

Why do you think we have single sex provision in the first place?

I read her reply to you. That is not exactly what she said, was it?

This is not about whether I agree with her. I think what you said about her daughter above was terrible.

And because we can't tell nice men from the not nice men we keep them all out of women spaces, and that includes transwomen because they are men.

There are criminals of all characteristics and all walks of life. Some of these happen to be white, black, brown, have long hair, blue eyes, one arm, etc. The existence of some criminals who happen to be trans, says nothing about trans people as a group.

Trans people as a group are not a threat to women and girls. Excluding trans people from women's spaces will not make them any more or less dangerous for women and girls.

Why do you think we have single sex provision in the first place?

I answered this question multiple times already. It's rooted in social norms around privacy/ dignity.

That's really not why the EA allows for single sex spaces - it's got nothing to do with men being 'not nice' lol. It's about effective service delivery - (due to social norms).

thank you xx We can disagree with each other without resorting to this

Putting TW has a group to one side and looking at one individual, do you feel that Isla Bryson as a TW, should be housed in a female prison estate?

Well given that many transwomen are in prison for sexual offences, excluding them from women's prisons will certainly make them safer places for women.

Once again, you are wrong. Nothing to do with social norms and all to do with safeguarding. Privacy/dignity is a secondary benefit to single sex provision. Men as a class are a danger to women. You being happy to blur the boundaries regarding safeguarding is what leads me to believe that you will put men before women. You do not care about women.