"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

Exactly this.

Tandora, for example, is clearly not posting in good faith.

When I asked her on the previous thread what she would do if her daughter were raped by a trans woman in a female only space, she gave a succession of silly and evasive answers whilst continually shit posting about DSDs in an effort to fill the thread up as quickly as possible.

She said she would wonder what her daughter had been reading online to make her think trans women are a risk. (In response to her daughter saying she was afraid of trans women because she had actually been raped by one in a female only space.) She said she would say the same thing she would say to her daughter if she had been harmed by a green person and then said she didn't want to go to school with green people any more. Stupid shit like that.

I don't believe a word of it.

If she actually is a woman and actually does have a daughter, and if her daughter were raped by a trans woman in a female only space, she would want to rip his bollocks off just like any of us would if it happened to our daughters. And I'm quite sure she would become a card carrying TERF overnight.

And I think she knows this.

I boxed her into a corner, because if she said that if it happened to her daughter she might re-evaluate, or agree that perhaps letting fully intact biological males use women's toilets and changing rooms is a safeguarding risk, that would make it clear that she already knows it is a safeguarding risk. Because it is happening. It's just that it's happening to other people's daughters, not hers.

And so the shit posting continues.

It has been very useful - 2 threads of word salad and Humptydumptyism.

Tandora is a fantastic example of operation Let Them Speak.

I’ve been off X for a couple of years, accounts like Tandoras were ten a penny there. I used to have bizarre ‘conversations’ - one man told me his transness/femaleness was his avatar, & that we all had an avatar self. He was deadly serious.

Often men would trot out their ‘this is why I’m a woman’ rants. When they realised I wasn’t going to capitulate they’d just release a torrent of abuse. It really was like a cesspit.

Countless times I asked what human rights do trans people not have that everybody else has? I never got an answer. The rights they felt they were lacking were of course those held by another group - women.

I got so bored of people using DSDs as a sex isn’t binary argument. It was the same rubbish over and over. It was impossible to have a reasonable debate.

You can’t have a serious debate with people who want to explode and deny stable categories. If all words & facts can mean anything to anyone, to suit their own agenda, then nothing has any meaning.

Is this still going?

Sex is not just one thing - a person's 'chromosomes' do not definitively tell you what sex they are. There is no single measure that does this. Sex is a multi-dimensional variable with multiple components.

Like the knob on a washing machine?

Yup. I’ve been away for a few years - C is full of this shit. And full of vexatious litigants if you dare to challenge them, or men threatening to hang or shoot or rape yoy. But Tandora wants women patient ms to be in the position of challenging a man in a hospital/doctors room whilst they’re vulnerable…

It doesn't really matter what she wants does it because she has zero influence.

Most people are bored of this ridiculousness and will be happy to implement in line with the EHRC guidance once it's out.

The NHS will have to get on with it now Upton has exposed his appalling behaviour to the world.

You have to wonder as well about the motivations of a poster causing obvious upset. I mean real upset, not some wailing blue haired student, crying on Tik Tok because the Subway employee correctly referred to her as ‘she’ , despite the fact in her mind she’s ‘obviously’ a man.

But upset around real issues of safety, & the fear that women may no longer be guaranteed single sex spaces away from the male gaze, & the presence of male bodied people.

How dare people like Tandora be so utterly dismissive of women’s rights & concerns. Maybe that’s the kick? The male heading up the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, doing the occasional session with a female client ‘to keep his hand in.’ And telling women to reframe their trauma. The man’s a ghoul. This is real life, real concerns.

Tandora spouting rubbish, pretending to be in a research field, to have some scientific knowledge. I call fake. It’s just a way to wind women up, see their disquiet, enjoy their distress. How sad.

Yeah, she's a nobody.

I loved the way she was trying to assert her superiority over the rest of us mere mortals who think sex is binary by claiming to work in some unspecified area of scientific research, and then in the next breath told a lawyer that their interpretation of the Supreme Court "judgement" (sic) was wrong.

This supports the idea that they arent male, that any man can claim he's not male.

What does this mean for safeguarding if there's a group of men who aren't seen by society as male?

A man with an inner feeling of gender is no more in danger in the mens toilet as any other man. They just are manipulating everyone to believe that they are not really men.

The idea that a man would feel unsafe in the toilets in John Lewis is a fantasy we shouldnt tolerate.

Jumping right to the end. I see @Tandora has at least acknowledged the need for same sex rape crisis centres. But I just wanted to explain the broader biology of trauma.

Many many women are victims of rape and sexual violence. There is the classic 1 in 4 have been subject to DV before the age of 50. This is of course usually male based.

Traumatised women are everywhere. There's far more of them, in total than the there are transwomen in total. They have needs across society from social to medical.

They aren't just going to be triggered by being in a therapy room with a transwomen who lets say doesn't pass, the same is going to happen everywhere in a vulnerable state where there is a non passing transwomen.

Trauma changes the brain, particular in early life. There is far far more evidence of this than any biological basis for transgender. It is a fundamental part of the "old" brain which has an important protective function.

These women need more than crisis help, they need single sex spaces and groups. That includes those like Sandie with a trauma history who is working as a nurse. Otherwise they will self exclude from society.

Transwomen can live as a woman without demanding to go into single sex loos and changing facilities, especially if neutral loos are provided as I would support. And without insisting on joing Women's Institute or whatever

Nobody's sex or gender identity demands entering such biological spaces. Many people go into neutral facilities for whatever reason.

As I've seen on posters recently, "feelings" of cis women are dismissed as bigoted and irrelevant. But they have a fundamental biological protective nature, and we can actually observe the changes in the brain.

Not really. It supports the idea that they are male choosing to live with a different gender identity. If they are expressing their gender identity difference in an identifiable way through clothes etc, it does mean they are much more likely to face violence and discrimination, particularly black trans women.

So I do support the idea of third spaces for those with a gender identity that doesn't match their birth sex.

I will never accept the loss of single sex spaces for women, though.

I agree with pretty much your entire post, however there is a reason I only ever refer to Tandora as Tandora.

I obviously can't be certain, but it is my opinion that Tandora is male and, if I were to venture an opinion on possible children, it would also be my opinion that Tandora doesn't have any daughters, and in my opinion likely doesn't have any children at all.

I'm not sure if my post will be removed or not, I'm not being offensive (being male is not innately offensive, neither is being described as male, or being erroneously mis-sexed as male in this instance), and I don't think my opinions break talk guidelines, but I'm sure we'll soon find out if it goes pop.

Anecdote time! I suppose I'm a GNC woman, I don't wear make up, haven't shaved in years, don't wear stereotypically female clothing and stick to baggy oversized clothes, and I only have long hair because I'm too lazy to cut it on the regular, although it's usually up in a tight bun to keep it out of my face and to stop it getting caught in things - safety hazard!

In my life I've been mistaken for a boy 3 times. It wasn't a big deal, it wasn't offended, and importantly it wasn't relevant in the same way that it would be in a medical setting (obviously ha ha!).

I was in my late teens-very early twenties at the time and I was wearing baggy clothing as usual, which does a good job at intentionally concealing my very stereotypically female body shape from men - and I'm sure most of the readers will understand why I would want to conceal my shape from men without having to ask why.

The first time it happened, two young boys whispered to each other after they had walked past me "Was that a boy or a girl?", "Dunno!" - I smiled and carried on my day, they didn't mean any harm, I wasn't offended, and it wasn't relevant.

The second time it happened, I was walking my dog (now sadly long gone) and a man probably in his 70's out doing his garden stopped me to chat about her - she was a lovely looking collie tbf!
At some point in the conversation he called me "young man". I did not correct him, it seemed a little pointless and I didn't want to embarrass him by pointing out his mistake. He didn't mean any harm, I wasn't offended, and it wasn't relevant.

The last time it happened, I was on a night out with some friends in the pub, wearing the usual baggy clothes, but this time I actually did have a very short haircut, of the sort stereotypically found in male hair fashion.
I had stepped outside for a smoke and a young lassie came up from behind me, tapped me on the shoulder and said "Hey sexy! Can I have one of your cigarettes?", I turned around and she looked utterly mortified, upon seeing my face she recognised immediately that I was female and she just looked like she wanted the ground to open up and swallow her. I laughed, told her not to worry about it and gave her one of my smokes 😂

If only those trans identified males who have a problem with women who correctly sex them could deal with these type of non-events in a similar manner, the world would be a much happier place all round.

Excellent post @BeLemonNow

I’m re-reading The Body Keeps The Score. The long term/life long effects of trauma on the body makes for very difficult reading. Anybody who has even the most basic understanding of this, but then insists men should be in women only spaces, is despicable.

It doesn’t even call for a basic understanding, it just assumes human decency and a recognition that women need spaces and services away from men, all men. Of course this means centring women’s needs, which is anathema to many.

@Tandora
In case you missed it. I'd really appreciate an answer to this.

Horoscope?
Crystal ball?
Washing machine instruction manual?

Isn’t it interesting that, in the absence of a certain poster, we’ve managed to have an exchange of ideas that hasn’t relied on pseudo or fictitious science, DSDs or men’s magical thinking or feelings. Basically Kryptonite to the gender wang crowd.

I boxed her into a corner, because if she said that if it happened to her daughter she might re-evaluate, or agree that perhaps letting fully intact biological males use women's toilets and changing rooms is a safeguarding risk, that would make it clear that she already knows it is a safeguarding risk. Because it is happening. It's just that it's happening to other people's daughters, not hers.

Do it to Julia writ large with flashing neon lights.

This is at the very heart of the horror that Tandora and those of her ilk are pushing - it is not them or theirs that suffer the consequences it is others ones that they consider beneath them and inferior and that is fine by them. This has been glaringly obvious in Sandie Peggie's case the superior class sneering shines very bright.

Notably none of the superior hand maidens falling over themselves for Dr Upton have volunteered to change their clothes in front of him, dear me no, that is for those nurse plebs like working class Sandie.

It is not them or theirs who they insist has to refer to a rapist as she in court, not them or theirs who would run the risk of meeting said rapist in a female only toilet or changing room when said rapist is released from prison, not them or theirs that would be expected to share a prison cell with said rapist, not them or theirs so traumatised that they absolutely need female only care. If it was you can bet your bottom dollar they would very swiftly change their tune.

@NeverOneBiscuit Thanks, I've also read that book several years ago.

Trauma informed care is extremely fashionable in mental health services at the moment, there no way Dr. Upton wouldn't understand this stuff.

It's part of what makes his response to Sandie so despicable.

Upton’s trauma is bigger and worserer - ang woman beyond the age if 35 knows this script,

R.e. single sex spaces, my gym/leisure centre changing rooms is open plan both women and girls. Like many women I feel protective towards these girls irrespective of being my own or not.

If I was walking out, there was a girl in there and saw a man/transwomen walking in I would absolutely intervene.

The notion Tandora made, paraphrasing, that a sexual predator who wants to access girls in a single sex spaces will do so whether allowed or not misses the point It is much easier to do this when TWAW and access is allowed.

Because I just notice a man I don't know if they are trans or not. If they are a transwomen I'm risking being told I'm transphobic or just being "wrong". It also normalises male presence in there when it should be an alarm bell ringing.

If they are expressing their gender identity difference in an identifiable way through clothes etc, it does mean they are much more likely to face violence and discrimination

Can you provide any evidence of this (that doesn't relate to Brazilian prostitutes)?

I don't mean to sound aggressive, but this repeated as though it's a fact and used as a reason that trans women 'need' to access women's spaces. They don't.

And even if they were more subject to male violence, that is not women's problem to solve. We're not everyone's mum.

I would like to see how this flies on Reddit.

Probably from 25+ there is a near universal desire to be younger, there is not a universal desire to change sex.

It appears that you are accepting that trans women shouldn't be in some women's spaces.

Why is that? Why shouldn't they be there?

And of course, you are wrong, there are multiple accounts of alternative gender identities across culture and across history.