"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

Hey! I’ve got a new line of t-shirts under production if anybody wants one.

I’m afraid they only come in large & extra large, as the slogan is ‘Sex is a multidimensional, complex developmental system - so chew on that!’

20% discount for truth seekers.

Upton knows she has XY chromosomes. She also knows that she is female. Both these things are true at the same time.

There are still, whatever nonsense you purport, only rwo sexes in the human species and you cannot change from one to the other.

Trans people have the right to be accepted and accommodated in society as who they are, which is trans.

And they can be accepted and accommodated as trans, as the sex they were born, part of the rich tapestry and diversity of that sex. Single sex services stay as exclusively single sex, alternative separate provision provided if necessary.

But not anorexic people, healthy people who want to remove healthy limbs because they identify as disabled, trans age or race because there’s not enough of them so far and there’s been no lawsuits.

Why do you affirm trans women (let’s face it no one is fussed about trans men as everyone knows they are women at the bottom of the pile like the rest of is) but not any of them?

They are who they say they are surely?

Why do you assume DU has XY chromosomes?

And they can be accepted and accommodated as trans, as the sex they were born

No. To be trans is to experience sex as other than your sex observed at birth. That is what it is to be trans.

To refuse to acknowledge this, and to treat a trans person according to their birth sex is to deny their reality, their humanity, their dignity, it is to cause them psychological torture.

Because she was assigned male at birth.

It is possible, that she has xx chromosomes with de la Chapelle syndrome, of course, but not likely.

They will never be the words to distinguish trans identifying men from women because thats the exact opposite to what these men want. And because the are male, everyone is bending over backwards to facilitate it.

These men were call transvestites, then transsexuals, then transgender, then transgender women, then transwomen, then trans women, now female.

There are even trans identifying men who call themselves cis women because they have completed their transition.

So how you can confidently say the use of 'female at birth' can be used instead of woman is beyond me, given TRA say they were born trans.

To refuse to acknowledge this, and to treat a trans person according to their birth sex is to deny their reality, their humanity, their dignity, it is to cause them psychological torture.

What a load of hyperbole.

I note you have zero problem denying women their reality, their humanity, their dignity.

What a load of hyperbole

It's not hyperbolic at all.

I note you have zero problem denying women their reality, their humanity, their dignity

Your observation is incorrect.

For some women, toilets where you are partially undressed and vulnerable are exactly the spaces that they need to be single sex. Same with changing rooms that are in any way communal and not single use.

The answer for both maybe to create a third space option, or to create more individual complete cubicles vs communal options.

But to remove single sex spaces for women who need single sex toilets and changing rooms does harm those women.

Reading Tandora's posts on here it is a wonder the human race has managed to continue to reproduce.

All of us just accidentally happening upon a person we are able to reproduce with, with the complexity of sex and all that!

What a load of nonsense.

Also regarding Upton, the way he treated Sandie Peggie, doesn't give me much confidence that he would take kindly to any woman who objects to him providing single sex care, even if she wasn't explicit in the reason.

Men who wish to coerce women like this should not be coddled, they are not the victims here.

I don’t follow. During the tribunal, remember where we started, female witnesses claimed IIRC that they couldn’t authoritatively say if they were female because their chromosomes hadn’t been checked. In fact isn’t that when you joined the discussion? To tell everyone they were wrong to ridicule such a ridiculous statement. Yet here you are telling us you know what DU’s chromosomes are, on the basis of the sex they were ‘assigned at birth’.

I guess it’s not as complex as you claim.

The edit doesn’t disguise your very revealing initial assumption btw

The answer for both maybe to create a third space option, or to create more individual complete cubicles vs communal options.

Yes those would be reasonable, although it wouldn't be reasonable to say that trans people always had to use the third space - but if it were there for any who preferred to use it that would be reasonable.

Maybe Dr Upton tried to check his chromosomes in the same way he altered the date stamp on his screenshots, or his ‘contemporaneous notes’?

I mean, give the guy a break, these things are complex, & multidimensional, it’s not easy knowing what sex you are (checks notes, & material reality….. er, apparently it is).

When I was giving birth I knew I was female, I identified immediately the sex of my children (go me 🥇) & didn’t have to chromosome check the male I had sex with who fathered our children. Bloody genius me!!

although it wouldn't be reasonable to say that trans people always had to use the third space

They wouldn't have to use the third space - they could use the third space or the space for the sex they were assigned at birth.

It wouldn't be reasonable for them to use the space designed for the opposite sex as doing so stops it being a single sex space and turns it into a mixed sex space which then harms the women who need a single sex space.

If Upton had any sort of dsd that would have been submitted as evidence.

Even Upton knows it’s a lie.

And is willing to assault female patients to uphold the lie

How many times do I have to explain this to you?

Sex is not just one thing - a person's 'chromosomes' do not definitively tell you what sex they are. There is no single measure that does this. Sex is a multi-dimensional variable with multiple components.

So I disagree with the witness in terms of her implication that knowing her chromosomes would definitively 'tell her what sex she is'. However, I agree with her that she doesn't necessarily know what chromosomes she has. If she had them tested, she may find out they were XY.

It is true that we don't know what chromosomes DU has, so I shouldn't have just stated they were male, as if that were definitive. The likelihood is that they are male, as the overwhelming majority of people assigned male at birth have male chromosomes (it's more likely to be assigned female and have XY chromosomes, than to be assigned male and have XX chromosomes). But it is possible that is true.

They wouldn't have to use the third space - they could use the third space or the space for the sex they were assigned at birth

No.

So you don't actually care that removing the provision of single sex toilets and changing rooms would harm some women?

That exchange - were a woman couldnt say with confidence that she is female, but believed a man to be female because he said so, is a perfect example of trans ideology.

Lots of women denying their needs and giving away the rights of women to please men.

There is only one reason that you looked at Dr Upton, rather than say Isla Bumba, and stated that their chromosomes are male. And we all know what that reason is.

I do not accept that allowing trans women to use basic facilities in accordance with their lived sex harms women in any meaningful way. I don't accept that there is any evidence of this.

It is, however, deeply harmful to trans people to compel them to live as their birth sex. It is a complete refutation of the fact that they are trans, a denial of their reality, their humanity, their dignity and a form of psychological torture.

@cloudyblueglass

l’m looking forward to Tandy’s response to your last post. I suspect the word ‘proactively’ will be focused upon, a lot!

Anybody who doesn’t think a male should tell a female that he’s male, when they’ve requested a female HCP, needs to take a long hard look at them self.

But hey, it’s complex!