NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

I think it's more like an incoming shitberg rather than a shitstorm.

They all fuck off to the lifeboats, leaving those behind who were busy trying to argue that Dr Upton should go first because he's a woman, to go down with the good ship NHS Fife and it's Captain.

And in true shitberg fashion, the size of the problem isn't apparent above the surface. You simply can't avoid it, and once you are on collision course for a shitberg, there is the inevitably that you WILL hit it. Naturally most of the shitberg lies below the waterline, but when you hit the shitberg, you suddenly discover just how much shit there is and how deep it goes.

A shitstorm, conversely, only produces a downpour and maybe a bit of flooding but you can usually escape it if you go inside and close the doors and wait for it to pass overhead.

Shame Dr U didn't locate his big girl pants again and attend the interview on his own. But it's not clear he's capable of doing anything at this point without KS holding his hand.

This is a very sound line of argument from NC but AH is really digging in her heels to avoid saying anyting that her employer wouldn't like.

The NHS Fife hole they are digging is getting deeper with each question and answer

AI says WE Gladstone. (but similiar from Talmud, Magna Carta, Wm Penn)

I am donating 50p for each thread started regarding Sandie Vs Fife to Faye Russell-Caldicott, which @nauticantlinked to at the begining of the thread, as thanks.

NC - was that the right way for AG to behaive?
AH - I'd ask for changes in writing
NC - is it right for ix to have meeting alone, with no notes etc with a witness to change staement
AH - nothin in policy

Back to lack of policy, structures, procedures - all very ad hoc.

“Nothing in policy” 🙄. What does your brain tell you?

I've been wondering along the same lines. I find it hard to believe that all the nurses were actually changing in front of him.

What would have been the response if an 'ordinary' Pete was repeatedly entering the changing room and would not leave?

My guess is that he would be suspended and the Police could be called. It would have been a charge of indecent exposure.

What is it that keeps the Pete's out of women's changing rooms at the moment.

When I was in a spa once a man did enter and it was the staff who approached him and asked him to leave. The threat given was that they would call the Police.

Does anyone know what is the current law?

NC - when statement done, witnessed, recorded, notated - but OK to meet in private with no records to change it
AH - not ideal
NC - can you imagine AG offering SP the same opportunity
AH - if SP had asked
NC - confident about that?
AH - fairly conf about i

Is the HR witness actually saying there was nothing wrong with Upton and glancey to change the notes of the interview? And throwing the original audio away?

Am I reading this right? Did it take them a YEAR to produce an incident report?

NC - does that look to you like a deliberate attempt to make a misleading papertrail about adjust ment of notes
AH - no
NC - another case of proper way of doing things to indulge DU
AH - no
NC - symptomatic of protecting DU and punishing SP even if dishonest conduct AH - no

I suspect they weren't all changing in front of him. It was mentioned at one point that some used toilet cubicles, for whatever reason. Which is obviously not ideal.

According to AH, everything, no matter how damaging or biased, is "not ideal" but OK because it's not forbidden by policy.

I can hardly decipher a single word.

Yes. I can follow somewhat if I lean close to the speaker and close my eyes, but I can’t keep that up. I also couldn’t hear NC for several minutes. Are the press in the room with them and unaffected by audio problems?

Voyeurism and sexual harassment laws.

NC - patient incidents in play in jan, they disappear at DU suggestion, then reappear when ix process
AH - when the ix team met with DU said there were other incidents, ix people asked her to expand and there was a further written statement
NC - a storm going on behind scene

like this?

Last time I was in a court room in person I couldn't hear much either as they really didn't seem to want to use the microphones available to them.

NC - about how and whether to inc those incidents, about whether to throw allegations at SP, but could harm DU as no evidence and untrue. They were the most serious allegations. The board was worried about harm to DU because untrue, if proved could be serious for DU

Yes this has been making me itch!

NC finished

If I was a nurse there I'd be changing my time of arrival and departure at work so as not to coincide with him.