NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

How can you have the PC of gender reassignment if you pass so well, like BU, that no one knows you are a man?

JR "Do you need some help finding that?" 🤣

Is that likely to work? IANAL but I just can't see how the law can be interpreted any other way. Why address the issue in law at all if in practise it just means "free for all, anyone enter"?

Big Betty Upton has a nice ring to it.

JR if you scroll down...

FFS JR they have paper bundles they can't fucking scroll

JR told to stop leading the witness

If she doesn't she can and will take it to court of appeal.

I just don't see how Fife can win,
They didn't follow any sort of procedure.
They appear to have interfered with internal investigations, they have withheld stuff from the court, another bundle of papers yesterday 🙄
Nobody is happy for Pete to be in the changing room.

What have they got going in their favour?

I would be very surprised if any court accepted this argument. However, it is one TRAs and the Good Law Project are pushing, so I'm not surprised it is being made.

Are Fife likely to appeal if they lose?

Remembering there are Scottish parliament election next year I really don’t think the SNP, who ultimately run the NHS in Scotland, will want this shambles rumbling on.
Remember John Swinney said only last week he had complete confidence in the health board!

JR probably showing that DrU's phone notes were contemporaneous and were downloaded in their entirety for the trib.
On 16th May.

Well they are proving themselves to be utterly incompetent and batshit, so all bets are off on whether they'd want to.

However I suspect they will be sat on very hard and not allowed to buy politicians because it's become so embarrassing and a waste of public funds.

Frm TT

We begin:
J - You will take an oath
PD - takes oath
JR - Mr Donaldson, you've written a statement, would you describe your role in NHS Fife board 1626
PD - info security manager, NHS fife, digital info dept, since april 2022. Develop security policy, investivations
JR - para 6, desc meeting 16th May with DU and AW, a Teams meeting. Desc what you did, how long
PD - short of 2 hrs
JR - what did you do
PD - asked to assist in downloading notes from DU phone for htis tb and present in manner understandable
JR -
PD - have a bg in forensics asked to help Adam in this

Fifer : clang, competency statit. Duly notit pal.

JR - google notes log 1643, yours
PD - yes
JR - to 1660, 20 screenshots.
PD - yes
JR - 260 - at top is a note, weird incident last thing it says sad times another 23 Dec
PD - y
JR - first one 23rd Aug
NC - leading
JR - what were you looking at
scroll you see down to 28th Oct.
PD - concerned with dates and how to get them, in a manner that presents in order, find creation times, not content I was concerned with , getting them in an order for Trib
JR - 1643 - screen shot 1 - its
NC - leading
J - best to assume will be disputed
JR - what is sc1
PD - in DU account
JR - headed weird inci 26 08 23, sc2 is below
PD - that's moving on, done to show chronological flow, version histories, where taken from
JR - this says version hist
PD - yes, gives every incident of note, back to earliest

Fifer : mannie is on the ba' here. Version history very guid.

16 May which year?

Following the post on Twitter about insurance I wonder if that would depend on the insurers being willing to fund it? I doubt they would!

First appeal is to the Employment Appeal Tribunal, then to the Inner House of the Court of Session, and from there to the Supreme Court of the UK.

DU said sync'd at same time
JR - JB been definitive about it, your confidence in creation date?
PD - accept what I've seen, how google presents. Definitive? Not convinced DU isnt right, don't
....

Given that they will continue to make the argument until it is tested in court, it doesn't seem a bad thing that it is part of this case.

I wonder whether it will come up again in the Darlington tribunal.

👋

Poor Tribunal Tweets having to record this!

I'm guessing this, as asked for at trib in Feb. Not certain.

Am I the only one not understanding all this date stuff? Things appearing to be dated before or after they should be?

Oh no! the sound has gone.

The sound is wonky today

JR is sounding even more patronising today. It may be partly the contrast with her accent and the male Scottish accent (so few men have made it to this tribunal).

Oh this is interesting. Mr Borwick has different evidence to Mr Donaldson. So Mr Donaldson has been called first and is giving an explanation ahead of time of his own view of the evidence (that we have not yet seen) from Mr Borwick who will appear next.

This is so much more interesting than I thought it would be!

And both witnesses are called by Fife?

As an observer, Mr Donaldon sounds quite equivocal in his response, they believe Dr Upton's account but don't have a technical explanation as to why there are some discrepancies that Mr Borwick criticises in Dr Upton's account.

(Waiting for TT to catch up before posting)