NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

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I've been pratting around this morning and forgot to log in. Best go do that now!

Have i missed anything yet?

I guess there is some Scandinavian heritage or similar? Previous name had "Onni" in it.

@Boiledbeetle No, still waiting for the Judge to join proceedings.

I think I will. It's really unacceptable that they are not covering it.

That will be from JR's side. But in KS's testimony she relied quite a lot on not being told things about her disclosure obligations that were rather surprising so I'm hoping NC can cross-check between what Peter Donaldson said was done and what KS claims she was instructed to do.

Non-Newtonian fluids are ones that react in non-standard ways to pressure.

Think of water in a bath - if you swoosh it about it remains the same watery consistency. But ketchup in a bottle is too thick to come out until you thump the bottle - this is because ketchup is a thixotropic non-Newtonian fluid, which becomes more liquid under pressure.

By contrast try making up some powdered custard (or just a mix of cornflour and water). Stir it very gently, and it is a stirable liquid. Try to stir it fast and hard - or hit it with the spoon - and it stiffens and cracks. This is a dilatant/shear-thickening fluid.

A rheopectic fluid is similar to the custard, but with an additional time factor - stirring it harder or stirring it gently for longer both cause it to get thicker.

So if you're rheopectic, the longer or harder someone pushes you (for example to agree TWAW, or to use preferred pronouns) the more you resist.

It's basically a fancy way to say I'm stubborn and contrary.

You have misunderstood. The claimant is arguing from a GI point of view and attempting to silence civil servants with GC views.

Every day’s a school day :-)

I love that shop - its not far from me and I have spent a lot of money in there on mirrors, cushions, day of the dead decorations, aged wooden spoons. In fact, weirdly before opening the thread up today I did have a realisation i'd not been up to it in a while and thought i may have a browse round this weekend.

When we were looking at baby names we had Jemima on a baby DD list. MIL was thrilled as there had been some in DH Scottish family, apparently regularly used as a James-ina tribute. When I pointed out it was a Hebrew name featured in the bible she was baffled as she had always been told it was the Scottish female version if your dad was James.

@NoBinturongsHereMate Your comment about toilets - no-one must ever leave a toilet or changing room as they wont know if any one of the other people present is trans and would be offended. This also applies to the trans person as they dont know if others are trans. Therefore we must only have single cubicle toilets and changing rooms and by analogy all NHS wards can only have single rooms.

I add semolina to my meatballs
A Jamie Oliver recipe adds whizzed up Jacob’s cream crackers, instead of breadcrumbs. Which i have tried, but the Nigella recipe with the semolina is better.
Which reminds me: Farley's Rusk in the bottle with the formula helped my younger sister sleep, Needed to make a bigger hole in the teat though.

😂 CE is having tech problems, just as well IT GUY is there.

What's in the suitcase?

I believe Prof Upton's wife, ie Dr Upton's grandmother, was Finnish.

I agree, but JR has signalled that she intends to argue for a different interpretation.

@Rightsraptor Bundles?

I'm hearing 'Maria' from West Side Story -

Stir it slow and it will stay watery
Stir it fast and it's almost like custard

but I can't get 'dilatant/shear-thickening fluid.' to scan.
I'm no Sondheim😒

Loving the new words and ideas too, can't get enough of them, and this is deffo the place to come to get them

IT guy keeps his pants there for slipping on over his trousers when he becomes IT GUY and solves stuff with plugs and wires. Then he slips them off, puts them back in his case and you would never know he is IT GUY.

I think it is reasonable to argue that microaggressions as a label are meant to imply something that becomes accountable on aggregate ie not one instance which might on the face of it seem petty but how, when they are repeated, it builds into something much more significant. Which I think is fair. The problem is in this current world one instance is seen as enough and which is what makes the term feel ridiculous in that context.

If, for example, you were walking towards a set of swinging doors with someone in front of you and they didn't hold it for you but let it slap you as it shut in your face, that might be annoying if it happened once but if they do it repeatedly whilst holding it open for others who don't have, say, a PC then that would build up to an act of possible harassment or such.

You would log the microaggressions and then present your interpretation once you felt a more serious act of harm could be interpreted from the series.

This is clearly what DU intended by logging SP. However, two instances of removing herself from the f cr when DU is in there combined with her attempts to find a solution through her line manager wouldn't reasonable amount to conceivable harm and could also, arguably, not be considered microaggressions at all, which is why the Xmas incident was presented so differently by DU than SP. He didn't have much of a narrative and so massaging this seemed opportune.

The problem is, also, of course the NHS Fife management also believing one incident is all that is required and this is further compounded by all the SNP and police messaging, the Stonewall and Stonewall adjacent training etc which has borrowed from the idea that one incidence of racism is enough (of course it is as it not to be considered a micro aggression of any sort -- it is an aggression full stop) so it is the conflation and re-defining of terms that creates this nonsense.

This is why the legal process is so useful as it is willing to unpick these things.

Although reading the judgement of MacBride's first ET which he lost, they clearly also think one instance of what one person might label a microaggression (sending an email to a colleague wondering what is harmful about asking about a local SEEN network on yammer) is sufficient. He has won the right to appeal and looking at the appeal judgement it looks like the EAT might be more willing to unpick these ideas.

Poor Peter the plumber

Perhaps the new, extra bundles that were mentioned at the close yesterday?

Just remember NHS Fife witnesses are arguing that they wouldn't know from sight that SU is a man. One of them said they may have an inkling once in conversation, KS said she would have no idea what he was assigned at birth etc....

They have also agreed that SU being trans was not communicated to any staff ahead of DU working in the dept.

So SP being able to discern that DU was trans when it wasn't at all obvious to others (🤔) led to her discriminating against him in a way that others wouldn't because they couldn't possibly know....

Leads us to wonder how on earth NHS Fife were intending to safeguard any female patients who requested same sex chaperoning or staff.

The witness has a very small table to be juggling all those documents.