NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

Isn't this about trying to get the SEEN network shut down? The claimant is suing both the Environment Agency and Andreas Mueller.

I'm not clear whether the environment agency needs to take a side on the issue.

From what I can see Andreas Mueller is funding his own defence, so I assume the Environment Agency just need to show that they haven't done anything wrong.

I am having trouble squaring what you’re saying with the text of this tweet - are there two cases?

x.com/AnnMSinnott/status/1943051183729361215

When referring to Tommy Robinson the msm often refers to his previous name (Yaxley-Lennon I think). Plus you have sex offenders who change their name (not the case here of course). I don’t think we want to go down the line where previous names cannot be mentioned. We have a TW at work and I use the new name for them, but I don’t think it is right to try to censor people from using a former name if they think it’s needed.

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This is just based on personal experience (also NHS, also employment claim, also dodgy IT stuff) but senior level IT people were totally aligned with the hospital's POV (mysteriously unrecoverable deleted emails) because they knew that their career trajectories depended on supporting the party line.

I think it is highly unusual for a current employee to step so out of line with the employer's stance, given how easily it would be for the employer to become quietly and unprovably difficult with advancement.

It tells you everything that the third spaces solution has been roundly and thoroughly rejected. This should be the perfect solution. It's not "othering", it's quite literally perfect inclusivity where absolutely anyone can go, and without making any statement about their sex or gender identity. Hell, it should presumably be the only place a NB person who says they're neither male nor female could go. All these people who don't know what sex they are without a chromosome test can put their minds at ease and go there too. It gives everyone an extra option and takes nothing away from anyone.

And yet it has been consistently refused and even damned as a hateful act. Perfectly inclusive, gender neutral, additional spaces in addition to single sex ones are not acceptable, hateful even. They must be women's spaces, designated women's spaces, but admitting self selecting men. Why is that?

The comments on changing rooms may be obiter but the substantive clarification of the law is that sex in the Equality Act means biological sex. The Equality Act is relied on for all discrimination cases, which includes changing rooms.

just use the "watch this thread button" to save filling it up.

i am going to be out and about all day so will have to catch up when i can.

But. Everyone seems so sure that SP will win this case. What if she doesn't?

ETA: regarding 3rd spaces. All those women who are so keen for (other) women to change with men who think they're women can use them, as can anyone who simply doesn't care, leaving the sex segregated ones (one for men, one for women) for those of the appropriate biological sex. Heck, i am an ancient old crone who is ex-military ex-boarding school. And i live in Germany where nudity is not generally considered sexual unless it is actually sexual (IYSWIM?) To preserve enough room for women wanting single sex spaces, I'd use them too, so there was enough room for people who really don'T want to. Will be nice to see the likes of KS and CM in there.

Thank you! That makes things clearer!

Up here, I'd expect to hear Betty more than Beth for my Mum's generation. Huge amounts of Betty/Mags for that age. For my Granny's generation, there was a lot of Ina's.

And there's the Big Betty/Wee Betty thing as well when Granny, Mum and Daughter all share the same name..

The outrage and sunlight cast by this case make it a win even if she loses. And I assume there can be an appeal.

Yes I think the IT Manager will be quite quite aware of who they work for ie "The Board", same as JR. So in primary I think we'll be hearing how the IT guy and The Board have done a great job in difficult circumstances regrettably entirely instigated by Terrible Bigot and her allies.

I think if there's any blame to come in part 1 today, medical and support staff will be copping that.

I really hope that isn't the outcome - the stress SP has been under could ruin people for life and to be faced with not really being able to return to work and having no financial recompense would be unbearable.

However, that aside, I don't think an adverse outcome would be such a bad thing legally. You can then appeal and become binding a la Forstater. The media interest and discussion and therefore sunlight and peaking and increased outrage at the result would be like a tidal wave that would wipe out the idea that "the majority" accept men who say they're women in women's spaces/sports/healthcare/prisons etc.

I always think, when schooled on how much of an outlier I am for not seeing men as women just because they say there are, that the only reason that TRAs can convince themselves that is because not enough people have been asked.

More discussion, more media coverage and more outrage wouldn't be a bad thing.

I can't see that she will lose though.

Oh yes - all the Inas who were just given their dad's name with -ina stuck on the end.

Williamina, Alexanderina, Johnina....

(I used to be a social worker and I knew a lot of old ladies!)

edit: quoted the wrong post

@TwoLoonsAndASprout No, it's one case. Environment agency is responsible for a number of other agencies funded by the government. One of tehse is Defra. Defra have a SEEN network (as does the environment agency). Therefore JR is being employed to defend the decision to permit that. Defra is being sued for permitting the SEEN network to exist and Andreas for heading it.

Thinking about it JR may just run with the arms length organisation and what their SEEN network does is nothing to do with us.

Same. I do like the old Irish system where you identify someone by their name and then the names of their same sex parent and grandparent, so it might be Maggie Edna Sadie.

This is a valuable system for when you've only got three surnames in the village.

IIRC Mr Peter Donaldson is an Information Security Manager at Fife, and has appeared in Board papers as having attended public board meetings on behalf of the department to speak to issues within board papers.

The other witness is a forensic phone data specialist from outside NHSF.

Famously Nigel & Nigella Lawson.

It's looking like we might actually start at 10am today!

JR only became a KC this year. according to her page on the Barristers website.

Court room is filling up. Looks like they are ready for 10am start.

@NeatOchreShark On the GMC registration it says Elisabeth Ruth Annikki UPTON

Mine, too, now! 😂

When you start looking through Scotland's People, you see a lot of women named after their Father who had been killed in the First World War. Some of them are the usual ones you see - Williamina, Robina etc but there are some unusual ones too - Donaldina and Jacobina were two which caught my eye.