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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

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33
Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:07

tribunalObserver · 25/07/2025 08:03

I don't think the judge checked there and then. He asked for a precise page reference, and rather pointedly asked if this was the Scottish version. JR said it was the May 2025 update of the England and Wales version and that she has previously sent the judge the Scottish version.

So why on earth quote from the E&W version?

Chersfrozenface · 25/07/2025 08:07

Or JR's clients have insisted that they have a legal right for DrU to be referred to as a woman and they're paying the bill so meh...

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

anyolddinosaur · 25/07/2025 08:10

Quoting from an English version in a Scottish court is unlikely to be well received. Scottish version https://judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/judicial-institute-publications/20250403-etbb.pdf?sfvrsn=2388f813_2

BezMills · 25/07/2025 08:11

JR is acting for DU and NHS Fife. (One would assume) NHS Fife is paying the bill and Dr U isn't contributing financially.

Does anyone know if that means she is "instructed by" (taking instructions from) Dr U, or not?

RabbitFurCoat · 25/07/2025 08:12

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 08:04

Also, obviously if you're prepping for food for people who need extra calories, particularly teenage boys, moistened breadcrumbs are a great way to stretch the meat and the budget - a beaten egg will help retain the shape.

There's a horrendous story here in Ireland at the moment about listeria in ready meals - the list of recalled products goes on and on, and it's making me relieved (as a change from my usual resentful) that a wheat allergy means I don't buy them very often. There's a lot of really easy ways to use basic ingredients.

Oh man. Not my kid but someone in my fam has peanut allergy, it was a nightmare back when it wasn't understood well, my sympathies!

NeatOchreShark · 25/07/2025 08:14

anyolddinosaur · 25/07/2025 08:10

Quoting from an English version in a Scottish court is unlikely to be well received. Scottish version https://judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/judicial-institute-publications/20250403-etbb.pdf?sfvrsn=2388f813_2

not relevant to the case but 'A person who manifests their sexual orientation through conduct or behaviour or other external indicators such as accent or physical appearance will be protected' can't believe there's a legally recognised gay accent 😁fair dos

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:14

anyolddinosaur · 25/07/2025 08:05

@FlatfacedCattypuss Ok - so I've just looked up the Scottish disciplinary process here https://workforce.nhs.scot/policies/conduct-policy-overview/conduct-policy/ and it should never have got as far as a formal disciplinary hearing. Should have been an investigation, no evidence to support accusations, no suspension and manager has words about how to behave in future.

Once they did decide to write a report
"Once an investigation has been concluded and it is determined that the matter should be referred to a conduct hearing, written notification will be sent to the employee within 7 calendar days of the manager receiving the final investigation report."

Any bets on whether that happened?

A few threads ago there was a link to emails between Anne and Mechelle in HR - does anyone know what ECD and EC refer to?

https://x.com/lesbianpersist/status/1948073440239395069

"My concern is always that no matter what advice we provide ECD in relation to alternatives to suspension it is always disregarded"

"It would be useful to know Mechelle how many in EC are currently suspended"

From what they say there is a general problem with suspensions at the hospital.

https://x.com/lesbianpersist/status/1948073440239395069

Largesso · 25/07/2025 08:15

A couple of reflections on yesterday.

I think one of the trickiest parts of a Js job must be trying to remain scrupulously fair during the proceedings.

I think that must be particularly tough in this hearing when NC is wiping the floor with any hint of material that might be loosely called evidence coming from JR camp.

I think the temptation for the J IB such circs is to tip fairness over into compensating for to try and find a sense of balance that represents the idea of fairness. It’s gonna feel very tricky in that room as those who are there have described. Someone described the end of the first day of proceedings with KS as feeling like they were all watching a body bleed out, or something.

In that climate he has given JR a wee bit of rope which she has fully exploited.

Whilst there is room to criticise NC for bringing JR into a question to the witness (‘as JR is so exercised…’) she has been at the end of constant interruptions from JR which were not being well managed by the judge because I think he can’t help but feel professional sympathy for the bumper car level amount of car crashes JR is experiencing.

Whilst NC could reasonably by criticised in that moment JRs reaction was ridiculously dramatic and is further evidence that she is using any opportunity to try and disrupt NC’s flow because she hopes that if NC takes too long to get to her Boom moment it will annoy the judge and work in her favour.

I don’t think it works like that. I think, hope, most judges will be informed by the evidence in relation to the law but not be swayed by such tactics.

I think in hindsight that NC including JR IB that question was actually an excellent tactic. It caused JR to blow up. The judge misunderstood the comment NC had made in a bid to seem fair to JR (and I’m sure because he is exhausted- more in that in a mo) but then astutely recognised he needed time to gather his thoughts.

When they came back it gave NC the opportunity to get the panel back on track. To point out the increasing asymmetry and to remind the j of his decision at the start.

I am not surprised the J is losing the plot a little with all the shenanigans of the respondents re disclosure. Listening to Foran’s last night who was brilliant it was quite noticeable how mentally exhausted he is trying to keep on top of the convoluted narrative and the players. Taking verbatim notes when they are referring to such an amount of documents will make your brain bleed but it is important to aid your own understanding.

The bundle was at 1700 pages and there was an additional bundle added yesterday.

I doubt very much whether the J has ever experienced anything like this before.

prh47bridge · 25/07/2025 08:15

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 25/07/2025 07:06

I saw that too. I suppose they have to be willing to work for either side.

That is the cab rank rule in operation. The idea is based on the fact that the cab at the front of the cab rank must take any customer who wants to travel. Similarly, a barrister must take on any client who wants to use them in an area of law in which they specialise provided they are available, and the client is willing to pay their standard rate. Clients can choose their barristers. Barristers cannot choose their clients.

TimeForATerf · 25/07/2025 08:15

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 07:14

Anyhow, the important stuff.

Celery: Old style blanched stuff, white stalks, non-stringy - delicious raw, and occasions for using an early 20th c celery glass, very nice filled with squeezy Primula cheese. or other cheese. Good cooked.

Modern green stuff, best cooked.

Julienne sticks of celery and potatoes cooked together with olive oil and butter are heaven, very good with any roast or grilled meat dish, a mix of soft and absorbent, and crisp gold crunchy bits. Do well in the air fryer.

Essential in soffrito, make up a bag for the freezer.

Never overcook celery, it brings out a very unpleasant flavour (as with brassicas)

Fennel. Bliss: seeds, feathery leaves, and best of all, bulbs.

The bulbs are good raw, but sublime cooked very slowly over low heat in butter and olive oil until they turn soft.

Pork meat balls containing fennel seeds (soak for 20 mins first to soften them) cooked in the oven over sliced fennel bulbs and served with a sauce made with fresh tomatoes and a little chopped fennel leaf is a delicious easy dinner.

phew, I've been wanting to say that for days.

👏👏👏👏👏 love this, I am also a celery, celeriac and fennel fan. I love fresh non stringy celery dipped in a Stilton dip with lumpy bits of cheese in it. The roast celery with potatoes sounds great.

there are very few vegetables I don’t like, I even love Brussels sprouts. The two I avoid for texture reasons rather than taste are Pak Choi and Asparagus. Similar texture, stringy and slimy.

everything else is welcome on my plate.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 25/07/2025 08:17

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:14

A few threads ago there was a link to emails between Anne and Mechelle in HR - does anyone know what ECD and EC refer to?

https://x.com/lesbianpersist/status/1948073440239395069

"My concern is always that no matter what advice we provide ECD in relation to alternatives to suspension it is always disregarded"

"It would be useful to know Mechelle how many in EC are currently suspended"

From what they say there is a general problem with suspensions at the hospital.

I think ECD might mean Emergency Care Doctors, and ‘how many in Emergency Care are suspended’.

Could be wrong though..

*edited to add it could be Emergency Care Department.

ArabellaScott · 25/07/2025 08:17

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 07:14

Anyhow, the important stuff.

Celery: Old style blanched stuff, white stalks, non-stringy - delicious raw, and occasions for using an early 20th c celery glass, very nice filled with squeezy Primula cheese. or other cheese. Good cooked.

Modern green stuff, best cooked.

Julienne sticks of celery and potatoes cooked together with olive oil and butter are heaven, very good with any roast or grilled meat dish, a mix of soft and absorbent, and crisp gold crunchy bits. Do well in the air fryer.

Essential in soffrito, make up a bag for the freezer.

Never overcook celery, it brings out a very unpleasant flavour (as with brassicas)

Fennel. Bliss: seeds, feathery leaves, and best of all, bulbs.

The bulbs are good raw, but sublime cooked very slowly over low heat in butter and olive oil until they turn soft.

Pork meat balls containing fennel seeds (soak for 20 mins first to soften them) cooked in the oven over sliced fennel bulbs and served with a sauce made with fresh tomatoes and a little chopped fennel leaf is a delicious easy dinner.

phew, I've been wanting to say that for days.

Celery glasses are a thing! Amazing.

https://www.re-foundobjects.com/product/view/old-glass-celery-vases?cat=11

Old Celery Vases

Victorian and Edwardian Celery Vases made from pressed glass

https://www.re-foundobjects.com/product/view/old-glass-celery-vases?cat=11

FeedbackProvider · 25/07/2025 08:17

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:07

So why on earth quote from the E&W version?

I’m not sure, but possibly because it has been updated since the judge made his initial ruling on sex-based language (and since FWS) and the Scottish one hasn’t?

Jellycatspyjamas · 25/07/2025 08:19

viques · 25/07/2025 02:50

Unfortunately for Sandie she had to change her clothing mid shift because she was having an unexpected and very heavy period, and her mid shift change coincided with DU at the end of his shift needing to use the FCR to wash his hands.

( I think most women seeing another woman having to change under such circumstances would have asked if there was anything they could do, eg fetch clean scrubs/ sanitary protection and then given her some privacy)

I think most women would do that, and in SPs shoes I’d have appreciated their concern, but having had very heavy periods and flooding during peri there’s just no way I would have wanted a man in my space, even if they were being supportive. There’s something very personal about finding yourself having an unexpected bleed in public that leaves you feeling really vulnerable and trying to sort yourself out with a man hanging around would be awful.

The lack of empathy from DU is stunning, even if I thought I had a right to be in that space, I’d yield to the more vulnerable person in that moment.

TigersAreBetterLookingThanNHSFife · 25/07/2025 08:19

Two random thoughts... first, I absolutely want JR to do the best possible job. I like @NoBinturongsHereMate 's "with the law/against the law". I don't want any possibility that a better lawyer could have got an outcome in favour of NHS Fife.

Second, I'm getting a sense that Fife can't split their defense and go after DU. If (as it seemed from KS's cross-examination yesterday) several consultants ganged up on SP in support of DU and hid the evidence then there would be no point?

tribunalObserver · 25/07/2025 08:22

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:07

So why on earth quote from the E&W version?

Because it said what she wanted it to say, duh :-)

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:24

Largesso · 25/07/2025 08:15

A couple of reflections on yesterday.

I think one of the trickiest parts of a Js job must be trying to remain scrupulously fair during the proceedings.

I think that must be particularly tough in this hearing when NC is wiping the floor with any hint of material that might be loosely called evidence coming from JR camp.

I think the temptation for the J IB such circs is to tip fairness over into compensating for to try and find a sense of balance that represents the idea of fairness. It’s gonna feel very tricky in that room as those who are there have described. Someone described the end of the first day of proceedings with KS as feeling like they were all watching a body bleed out, or something.

In that climate he has given JR a wee bit of rope which she has fully exploited.

Whilst there is room to criticise NC for bringing JR into a question to the witness (‘as JR is so exercised…’) she has been at the end of constant interruptions from JR which were not being well managed by the judge because I think he can’t help but feel professional sympathy for the bumper car level amount of car crashes JR is experiencing.

Whilst NC could reasonably by criticised in that moment JRs reaction was ridiculously dramatic and is further evidence that she is using any opportunity to try and disrupt NC’s flow because she hopes that if NC takes too long to get to her Boom moment it will annoy the judge and work in her favour.

I don’t think it works like that. I think, hope, most judges will be informed by the evidence in relation to the law but not be swayed by such tactics.

I think in hindsight that NC including JR IB that question was actually an excellent tactic. It caused JR to blow up. The judge misunderstood the comment NC had made in a bid to seem fair to JR (and I’m sure because he is exhausted- more in that in a mo) but then astutely recognised he needed time to gather his thoughts.

When they came back it gave NC the opportunity to get the panel back on track. To point out the increasing asymmetry and to remind the j of his decision at the start.

I am not surprised the J is losing the plot a little with all the shenanigans of the respondents re disclosure. Listening to Foran’s last night who was brilliant it was quite noticeable how mentally exhausted he is trying to keep on top of the convoluted narrative and the players. Taking verbatim notes when they are referring to such an amount of documents will make your brain bleed but it is important to aid your own understanding.

The bundle was at 1700 pages and there was an additional bundle added yesterday.

I doubt very much whether the J has ever experienced anything like this before.

Re: judge's exhaustion - does anyone know how much the court's resources vary depending on the participants? Presumably the next tribunal could involve a sole trader and his one employee, each representing themselves.

Largesso · 25/07/2025 08:24

Oooh. From Telegraph via Twitter. I hasn’t clocked NC saying that in the private sessions it has been much worse. I’m sure getting those documents through must have been so tricky.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41
tribunalObserver · 25/07/2025 08:24

prh47bridge · 25/07/2025 08:15

That is the cab rank rule in operation. The idea is based on the fact that the cab at the front of the cab rank must take any customer who wants to travel. Similarly, a barrister must take on any client who wants to use them in an area of law in which they specialise provided they are available, and the client is willing to pay their standard rate. Clients can choose their barristers. Barristers cannot choose their clients.

And I guess she can't say "I'm an expert in doing gender ideology talking points with a straight face" - she has to claim expertise in a form what would work for both sides. I wonder whether this is difficult for her, or whether there is Machiavellian motivation that makes it suit her fine?

SpottyBumPony · 25/07/2025 08:25

Sugarplumfairycakes1 · 25/07/2025 07:53

Sorry all, but can we have a trigger warning on any post that mentions the evil that is celery or fennel?

Just reading the words brings me out in hives.....

I do respect your choices, but clearly the malignent duo have be layered with more and more exotic ingredients to be anywhere near edible.

You can't police other people's space or thoughts. Come on now!

miraxxx · 25/07/2025 08:27

BezMills · 25/07/2025 07:51

yeah to be fair The Fifer was me, and getting his words mixed up. I misremembered and thought Polyploidy covered XXY and other unusual chromosomal arrangements where a single one is extra, which as you've pointed out, it doesn't (that's aneu wotsit that you said)

It's been a wee meenit since I got my BSc Hons in Anatomy at the University of Edinburgh School of Medicine (CLANG), and I've forgotten and misremembered A LOT. I'd be oblivious unless someone points it out, so thanks, honestly. I don't want to give out duff info!

Every day's a school day!

"je me coucherai moins bete ce soir"

ETA (also there have been more than a few 'odd remarks' made by physicians, nurses and non-clinical NHS staff during this tribunal, I don't even think we're nearly done)

Edited

Oh, I am so sorry. I caught the wrong end of the convo and thought that Kate Searles had said this. I am no expert myself. I absolutely admire the work you are doing here and wish to thank you.

NeatOchreShark · 25/07/2025 08:27

I love reading everyone's cooking posts. I'm awful at cooking and a lazy washer-upper. Does anyone have any high-protein one pot/pan recipes I could have a go at tonight? Fancy something a bit more wholesome than the usual scrambled eggs and ryvita

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:27

tribunalObserver · 25/07/2025 08:22

Because it said what she wanted it to say, duh :-)

But isn't it rather offensive to suggest that Scottish and English legal systems aren't separate?

Cailleach1 · 25/07/2025 08:29

What if you said you identified as the judge, and to address you as m’lud? How you never felt like anything else. Judges brain in your body. And started going on about how vulnerable you were, and started roaring crying if everyone didn’t address you as m’lud.

FleurFloor · 25/07/2025 08:29

@Merrymouse @HornyHornersPinkyWinky

I think ECD is Emergency Care Directorate and that is could include lots of different departments and clinical areas such as Same Day Emergency Care, Medical Admissions, Medical Assessment, Minor Injuries Units etc.

ED is Emergency Department when it isn't Esther Davidson

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