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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

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33
NebulousDog · 25/07/2025 07:21

DeanElderberry Fennel in a garlicy tomato sauce with fennel sausage on polenta is our go to easy supper.

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 07:23

TheKhakiQuail · 25/07/2025 06:25

I'm not saying this is the case here, but I wonder if a lawyer who had a passion for activism in a particular area might have a goal such as "defend the case by proving that tw have a right to be treated as their preferred gender and not challenged in the change room" that may not be the clients best legal defense eg "we did the best we could with the conflicting info available at the time and now the law is clearer we have ensured our policies are up to date" for example?

Totally!

Except that would be heresy. And we know with 100% certainty since yesterday that JR would never contemplate being a heretic.

A d then theres the snag that even JR would find it a stretch surely to say that NHSF’s total fiasco of a process was anything close to “best efforts”?!

miraxxx · 25/07/2025 07:23

BezMills · 25/07/2025 05:46

I think the Fifer said sth like this "46 chromosomes except in the very rare cases of polyploidy which survive to birth"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyploidy

Polyploidy is a condition in which the cells of an organism have more than two paired sets of (homologous) chromosomes. Most species whose cells have nuclei (eukaryotes) are diploid, meaning they have two complete sets of chromosomes, one from each of two parents; each set contains the same number of chromosomes, and the chromosomes are joined in pairs of homologous chromosomes.

That is a rather strange remark for a physician to make. Humans with DSDs and other genetic conditionss who have more or less than 46 chromosomes have them as a result of aneuploidy. Polyploidy is not viable in humans except for in heart or muscle tissues.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 25/07/2025 07:25

Good morning Vipers, Hags and Hagrids! Happy Friday!
#Istandwithfennel
I love the chicken chat, I always thought they were cute, didn’t realise they were violent. I’ll enjoy my Sunday roast with less guilt now.

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 07:25

FeedbackProvider · 25/07/2025 06:39

This seems to suggest that JR is not only incorrect to rely on the bench book for her argument, but also that she has misrepresented the contents to the judge. I wonder if NC will do some follow up on this issue today?

I wondered that. But I didn’t note which book she quoted from. I might have found a different one - JR did say but TT didn’t have that detail

BugsyMaroon · 25/07/2025 07:25

DH is vegetarian and eats celery schnitzel when we visit the sublime city that is Munich. I have just googled a recipe and realised that it's celeriac identifying as celery.

https://biancazapatka.com/en/celery-schnitzel/

Celery Schnitzel with Mushrooms (Vegan Cutlet)

This easy recipe for crusted celery schnitzel with creamy mushrooms is a delicious, vegan steak alternative to Grandma's traditional cutlet!

https://biancazapatka.com/en/celery-schnitzel/

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 07:27

rebmacesrevda · 25/07/2025 06:50

@KnottyAuty

The ETBB you've referred to is for England & Wales. There is a Scottish one (of course!) which I've attached, but I've not read. Hopefully they are more-or-less the same but you never know with the gender loonies up here 😬
Maybe in an ET either book can be used; I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if JR was using the wrong one.

https://judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/judicial-institute-publications/20250403-etbb826869956eca4753a2cd716592f975ee.pdf?sfvrsn=af07ff26_1

JR defo quoted “the English” version.
The judge checked.
I didn’t read the whole thing looking for her quote but it didn’t seem to match up with what I found.
If she raised it again it’s worth a challenge

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 07:31

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 07:14

Anyhow, the important stuff.

Celery: Old style blanched stuff, white stalks, non-stringy - delicious raw, and occasions for using an early 20th c celery glass, very nice filled with squeezy Primula cheese. or other cheese. Good cooked.

Modern green stuff, best cooked.

Julienne sticks of celery and potatoes cooked together with olive oil and butter are heaven, very good with any roast or grilled meat dish, a mix of soft and absorbent, and crisp gold crunchy bits. Do well in the air fryer.

Essential in soffrito, make up a bag for the freezer.

Never overcook celery, it brings out a very unpleasant flavour (as with brassicas)

Fennel. Bliss: seeds, feathery leaves, and best of all, bulbs.

The bulbs are good raw, but sublime cooked very slowly over low heat in butter and olive oil until they turn soft.

Pork meat balls containing fennel seeds (soak for 20 mins first to soften them) cooked in the oven over sliced fennel bulbs and served with a sauce made with fresh tomatoes and a little chopped fennel leaf is a delicious easy dinner.

phew, I've been wanting to say that for days.

Ooh - do you make the meatballs? Got a recipe? Or point me towards the shop if you buy them please?

Coffeebeforework · 25/07/2025 07:33

Morning all! On a 5 hour train journey today. Might make a dent in catching up on those threads. Then again, maybe not!!😂😂😂

FlatfacedCattypuss · 25/07/2025 07:36

anyolddinosaur · 25/07/2025 07:08

Jerabilis I picked that up too. In February Fife wanted to call Sandie into a disciplinary hearing where she had apparently been told there was a risk she'd be fired. I think this may have come out from her solicitor. This may have been a standard letter before a disciplinary hearing but if a December report had effectively cleared Sandie of the allegations what did they think they were playing at?

The report by Angela Glancy which was submitted in December didn’t clear Sandy, it was an initial investigation that recommended the matter went forward to a full disciplinary hearing. That’s what Sandy was called to attend in February, which has now cleared her.

BezMills · 25/07/2025 07:38

rebmacesrevda · 25/07/2025 06:08

@BezMills
Is that you caught up now? Folk were worried you were never coming back!

Hiya yes, I had to do the school run then was busy in the evening. I've just reached your post so only about 1 page behind.

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 07:43

I make my own meatballs, they're a standard low-carb, high-protein, easy meal, good with various sauces and curries.

Lidl often do pork mince. With any meatballs I don't add bread, just something to give flavour - choose between finely chopped herbs, very finely chopped shallot or onion, spices, poppy seeds, or in this case fennel seeds. Squidge them together, shape them with your hands.

NebulousDog · 25/07/2025 07:50

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 07:31

Ooh - do you make the meatballs? Got a recipe? Or point me towards the shop if you buy them please?

Ocado recently started to sell fennel sausages (as does my local Italian deli)
and Lidl do them sometimes for their Italian weeks (not tried theirs). Just pull the skins off. They are quite fatty so you might want to add some blitzed pork or veal mince to bulk them out.

Google Salsiccia fennel sausage.

BezMills · 25/07/2025 07:51

miraxxx · 25/07/2025 07:23

That is a rather strange remark for a physician to make. Humans with DSDs and other genetic conditionss who have more or less than 46 chromosomes have them as a result of aneuploidy. Polyploidy is not viable in humans except for in heart or muscle tissues.

yeah to be fair The Fifer was me, and getting his words mixed up. I misremembered and thought Polyploidy covered XXY and other unusual chromosomal arrangements where a single one is extra, which as you've pointed out, it doesn't (that's aneu wotsit that you said)

It's been a wee meenit since I got my BSc Hons in Anatomy at the University of Edinburgh School of Medicine (CLANG), and I've forgotten and misremembered A LOT. I'd be oblivious unless someone points it out, so thanks, honestly. I don't want to give out duff info!

Every day's a school day!

"je me coucherai moins bete ce soir"

ETA (also there have been more than a few 'odd remarks' made by physicians, nurses and non-clinical NHS staff during this tribunal, I don't even think we're nearly done)

NoBinturongsHereMate · 25/07/2025 07:52

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 15:40

I rather think that’s the point, she has nothing else. NC is clearly just much better at her job than JR is.

TBF to JR, they have vastly different jobs to do here.

NC is working with the law¹, with logic, with common sense - and for a single, straightforward, sane client. JR is having to argue contrary to all those things for 2 hopeless clients with non-aligned nterests.

So the performance gap isn't solely down to a difference of ability.

¹ Re whether the SC judgement applies to this case may technically be obiter, but the whole foundation of their argument was that the meaning of sex had to be consistent throughout the Act. It couldn't mean one thing in one situation and another somewhere else. So NC's counterargument to JR is already written into the judgement.

Sugarplumfairycakes1 · 25/07/2025 07:53

Sorry all, but can we have a trigger warning on any post that mentions the evil that is celery or fennel?

Just reading the words brings me out in hives.....

I do respect your choices, but clearly the malignent duo have be layered with more and more exotic ingredients to be anywhere near edible.

RabbitFurCoat · 25/07/2025 07:54

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 07:43

I make my own meatballs, they're a standard low-carb, high-protein, easy meal, good with various sauces and curries.

Lidl often do pork mince. With any meatballs I don't add bread, just something to give flavour - choose between finely chopped herbs, very finely chopped shallot or onion, spices, poppy seeds, or in this case fennel seeds. Squidge them together, shape them with your hands.

Also worth noting that when you're on hols and all the burgers are gone because it's hot and everyone is BBQing on the beach, beef meatballs can be squished into little burgers and are sometimes better value per lb of meat too. Avoided some serious disappointment in Cornwall one year doing that 😄

Largesso · 25/07/2025 07:56

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 07:27

JR defo quoted “the English” version.
The judge checked.
I didn’t read the whole thing looking for her quote but it didn’t seem to match up with what I found.
If she raised it again it’s worth a challenge

Oooh. How do you know the judge checked? Really curious as I was wondering if he has? I know Anya Palmer pointed it out on Twitter and she was quoted here but I don’t remember anything in TT that suggested J has checked?

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 07:58

Just read Times report - I hadn't realised that JR had said this:

"“It is offensive what Ms Cunningham is doing, which is referring to Dr Upton in these terms and in particular to call Dr Upton a man. Dr Upton is not a man.

“I am very concerned about this attitude for Ms Cunningham to be so offensive in court.” "

Whether or not I agree, I can see the logic of her making an argument centred on supporting witnesses giving evidence. However, when she claims 'Dr Upton is not a man' she demonstrates how central his sex is to the case, and why it is important for NC to use sexed pronouns.

FeedbackProvider · 25/07/2025 07:59

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 07:25

I wondered that. But I didn’t note which book she quoted from. I might have found a different one - JR did say but TT didn’t have that detail

I think she said it was the May update of the English bench book.

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 08:00

Largesso · 25/07/2025 07:56

Oooh. How do you know the judge checked? Really curious as I was wondering if he has? I know Anya Palmer pointed it out on Twitter and she was quoted here but I don’t remember anything in TT that suggested J has checked?

I assume that if the judge were asked to make a decision somebody would check what JR was claiming, and they would automatically refer to the Scottish version.

borntobequiet · 25/07/2025 08:02

Merrymouse · 25/07/2025 07:58

Just read Times report - I hadn't realised that JR had said this:

"“It is offensive what Ms Cunningham is doing, which is referring to Dr Upton in these terms and in particular to call Dr Upton a man. Dr Upton is not a man.

“I am very concerned about this attitude for Ms Cunningham to be so offensive in court.” "

Whether or not I agree, I can see the logic of her making an argument centred on supporting witnesses giving evidence. However, when she claims 'Dr Upton is not a man' she demonstrates how central his sex is to the case, and why it is important for NC to use sexed pronouns.

This is the sort of blunder that makes me think she’s not as good as she’s cracked up to be, as well as being totally blinkered by her beliefs.

tribunalObserver · 25/07/2025 08:03

I don't think the judge checked there and then. He asked for a precise page reference, and rather pointedly asked if this was the Scottish version. JR said it was the May 2025 update of the England and Wales version and that she has previously sent the judge the Scottish version.

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 08:04

RabbitFurCoat · 25/07/2025 07:54

Also worth noting that when you're on hols and all the burgers are gone because it's hot and everyone is BBQing on the beach, beef meatballs can be squished into little burgers and are sometimes better value per lb of meat too. Avoided some serious disappointment in Cornwall one year doing that 😄

Also, obviously if you're prepping for food for people who need extra calories, particularly teenage boys, moistened breadcrumbs are a great way to stretch the meat and the budget - a beaten egg will help retain the shape.

There's a horrendous story here in Ireland at the moment about listeria in ready meals - the list of recalled products goes on and on, and it's making me relieved (as a change from my usual resentful) that a wheat allergy means I don't buy them very often. There's a lot of really easy ways to use basic ingredients.

anyolddinosaur · 25/07/2025 08:05

@FlatfacedCattypuss Ok - so I've just looked up the Scottish disciplinary process here https://workforce.nhs.scot/policies/conduct-policy-overview/conduct-policy/ and it should never have got as far as a formal disciplinary hearing. Should have been an investigation, no evidence to support accusations, no suspension and manager has words about how to behave in future.

Once they did decide to write a report
"Once an investigation has been concluded and it is determined that the matter should be referred to a conduct hearing, written notification will be sent to the employee within 7 calendar days of the manager receiving the final investigation report."

Any bets on whether that happened?

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