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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

OP posts:
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33
2021x · 25/07/2025 03:04

Jitrenka · 25/07/2025 00:25

Its all a fetish they fancy themselves when they are dressed as a woman, sometimes its completely covered up fantasising about being a teacher or a librarian but they always wear ‘sexy’ underwear underneath and then there is some that just wear practically nothing and it all for the same reason - to get off!

Then there are some who like the idea of being seen as a medical professional lets say a doctor and since nurses are already sexualised at the slightest opportunity what better way to combine exhibitionism and voyeurism than to suddenly feel ‘trans’ as a male doctor and start dressing as a woman and then position yourself being around vulnerable nurses in a state of undress, then have women defend you and protect your feelings (which all falls under the bdsm umbrella) when the nurses say this is a man in our changing room!!

Which I would believe but this TGW was clearly attracted to males (like Blaire White). Why can't they just be sexual online and not attribute a sex/gender to it. Or... not put photos of themselves online in lingerie at all.

I fully believed that they are just so uncomfortable with being a male (prehaps due to trauma or internalised homophobia), but they seem to keep telling on themselves that it is all about sex.

2021x · 25/07/2025 03:06

Jitrenka · 25/07/2025 00:36

Its so much more than autogynephilia tho thats one of the things that really makes my blood boil, for instance menophilia is the one that really grossed me out, i watched a film a while ago and the subject matter was menophilia i knew of most fetishes but ill admit this one shocked me and i was even more shocked to find there are lots of men that are into it and then a few weeks later i read a post on X about a ‘trans’ who had watched a young lady discard her sanitary products waited til she left and rifled through the bin picked it out and proceed to use it and then went into the garage where she was working and struck up a conversation with her which he said lasted 20 mins and he felt euphoric knowing he had her discarded product in his underwear and then said he may go back there again to take advantage of the situation he said the young lady was in her mid to late teens.. these men are into all sorts of gross things and i wish people knew it because the wouldnt be crying ‘you’re transphobic’ every second sentence if they did!!

This is shocking....

GreenUp · 25/07/2025 04:29

Lins77 · 24/07/2025 23:10

Is the Guardian not covering this at all?

The Guardian's Scotland correspondent - Libby Brooks - is a massive TRA so won't cover anything that doesn't fit her agenda.

She was practically in tears on the Guardian's podcast when she had to explain the For Women Scotland win after the Supreme Court judgment was released.

YouCantProveIt · 25/07/2025 04:41

Re the Guardians lack of coverage I’m going to write to them about it. They can have personal beliefs but should do their jobs. Like they expect Sandie to do.

Feel free to write too.

BezMills · 25/07/2025 05:46

Totallygripped · 24/07/2025 20:27

As someone else has noted amazing breadth of knowledge here. Few words I would like to look up but can't easily find so plse point me to. XXX non-Newtonian and Fifer response to 2 chromosomes, 46 actually except???

I think the Fifer said sth like this "46 chromosomes except in the very rare cases of polyploidy which survive to birth"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyploidy

Polyploidy is a condition in which the cells of an organism have more than two paired sets of (homologous) chromosomes. Most species whose cells have nuclei (eukaryotes) are diploid, meaning they have two complete sets of chromosomes, one from each of two parents; each set contains the same number of chromosomes, and the chromosomes are joined in pairs of homologous chromosomes.

Polyploidy - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyploidy

BugsyMaroon · 25/07/2025 06:00

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 23:04

Can't agree with you about fennel. Sliced paper thin, with a drizzle of really good olive oil and a sprinkle of celery salt and it's beautiful.

And Finocchiona salami is the best type of salami.

Jumping in to say that also roasted the fennel loses it's fennel-iness. Which I also quite like but then it just becomes a vegetable with texture rather than flavour. It does mean I can get it down the DS with the food issues though.

rebmacesrevda · 25/07/2025 06:08

@BezMills
Is that you caught up now? Folk were worried you were never coming back!

rebmacesrevda · 25/07/2025 06:17

SidewaysOtter · 24/07/2025 23:59

Fennelphobe Grin

Nah, I’m just fennel critical. I’m quite prepared to go all the way to the Supreme Court to have it proved that fennel - and indeed anything that tastes of aniseed - can identify as an acceptable foodstuff all it likes but the reality is very different.

I'd like to support your application to the supreme court. I'm a radical vegetablist, and I reject the notion that fennel is a vegetable. It's the work of the devil and I believe the law of the land should reflect that.

TheKhakiQuail · 25/07/2025 06:25

I'm not saying this is the case here, but I wonder if a lawyer who had a passion for activism in a particular area might have a goal such as "defend the case by proving that tw have a right to be treated as their preferred gender and not challenged in the change room" that may not be the clients best legal defense eg "we did the best we could with the conflicting info available at the time and now the law is clearer we have ensured our policies are up to date" for example?

borntobequiet · 25/07/2025 06:38

nauticant · 24/07/2025 23:03

Watching JR I often get the sense her arguments seem to be fixed at where the law was in about 2018 and don't take into account what's happened since.

I think her devotion to the cause makes it impossible for her to get past it.

FeedbackProvider · 25/07/2025 06:39

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 22:54

Oh thanks for this - I forgot I could look it up myself!

Having had a look I think it was very unwise for JR to point this update out and draw the Tribunal's attention to it - the references to single-sex spaces are not favourable to her clients' case?!

From page 195:
"In the context of single-sex services, the Supreme Court has made it clear that there is no entitlement for anyone to use single-sex services intended for members of the opposite sex".

Full document here:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/ETBB-July-2024-May-2025-update.pdf

Not sure what JR is quoting but this section says (my bold):

Page 194: Treatment of trans people in court

17. Typically, it should be unproblematic for the judge to use the trans person’s preferred name and pronouns (“he/she” or “they”), regardless of whether they have obtained a GRC. However, where one side’s case hinges on the recognition of the biological sex of the trans person as crucial, and the other side on the recognition of their chosen identification, judges need to be careful not to let the choice of gendered pronouns give an appearance of bias, or that there is a predetermined conclusion. If possible, using the individual’s name instead of a pronoun where these pronouns are contested, or alternatively, the gender-neutral pronoun of “they” may help minimise offence towards, or the undermining of, an individual’s personal identification, while also not validating and giving it undue weight over the perceptions of others identification, while also not validating and giving it undue weight over the perceptions of others.

18. There will be other situations where the judge may decide not to use the trans person’s preferred name/pronouns to ensure a witness can give best evidence, eg a female rape victim may find it incomprehensible if the judge and others in court refer to her biologically male attacker as “she”. In the end, it is for the judge to ensure that a proper balance is struck between respecting how a trans person, as with any person, wishes to be addressed (within reason), and enabling a witness to give best evidence/recount events as accurately and truthfully as possible.

19. Witnesses should never be compelled to use the trans person’s preferred pronouns. It should always be permitted for them to refer to a person how they presently understand or previously knew them (as in any case, eg a fraud where a defendant has used multiple identities). A victim of domestic abuse, sexual violence or assault by a trans person is particularly likely to describe the perpetrator in accordance with the victim’s experience and perception of events. To do otherwise, and place additional or artificial barriers on a witness, is likely to detract from their ability to give best evidence.

20. A person’s biological sex or their trans history should not normally need to be disclosed if it is not relevant to the legal proceedings. Where appropriate, in the interests of the administration of justice, the court may consider making reporting restrictions under s.4 Contempt of Court Act 1981, or a range of privacy orders under rule 49, The Employment Tribunal (Rules of Procedure) 2024 or other relevant Tribunal Rules, to prevent the disclosure of a trans person’s previous name and trans history. Alternatively, it may direct that part or all the hearing be in private, subject to the need to balance competing convention rights. It is usually inappropriate to enquire about someone’s medical history, including their anatomical status, unless it is relevant to the case. If it becomes relevant, the issue should be handled with sensitivity. Again, a private hearing might be directed, subject to considering competing convention rights.

21. Fundamental principles of equality and acceptance of diversity demand that no prejudice or difference in treatment is accorded to a person due to their appearance, including their manner of dress. Any person’s “gender expression” and/or choice of clothing should be respected unless there is an affront to public decency or a clear intention to insult the judicial process. This applies equally to all people, whether trans or not.

...

Page 198 Recommended terminology

38. Where relevant, many people will find it acceptable to be described as a “trans person” or a “transgender person”. Others may prefer to describe themselves more specifically as, eg “non-binary”.

39. Despite its use in current legislation, the term “transsexual” is generally considered to be outdated or potentially offensive to many trans people, as is the use of “transgender” as a noun (eg “he is a transgender”).

40. A “trans woman” describes someone whose biological sex is male and who now identifies as a woman.

41. A “trans man” describes someone whose biological sex is female and who now identifies as a man.

42. The term “cisgender” or “cis” is sometimes used to describe people who are not transgender and are assumed to have a gender identity that matches their biological sex. Many people feel strongly that they do not wish to be described as “cisgender” or “cis”.

43. Nowadays, it is generally inaccurate to refer to someone as a “pre-operative” or “postoperative” trans person, because many trans people do not wish to undergo any particular gender-reassignment surgery.

44. “Deadnaming” is a term used where a trans person, in the course of transitioning or having transitioned, is called by their birth name, or where their birth name is otherwise referred to, instead of their chosen name. In court, witnesses may refer to a person by their deadname if this is how they knew them.

45. Trans people, lesbian, gay and bisexual people are often referred to collectively as “LGBT”. Many research papers also look collectively into issues of discrimination against these groups. The term “LGBT” is sometimes extended by adding “Q” (queer or questioning), “I” (intersex), “A” (asexual, a term used by people who do not experience sexual attraction); and/or, more generically, simply a “+”.

46. “Gender critical” is a phrase which, broadly speaking, refers to a belief that sex is fundamentally immutable and binary. People who are gender critical do not believe that a person can change their sex.

47. Gender-critical beliefs are protected beliefs, even if they might offend or upset trans people (or others)

Also from page 212 Appendix A on the Equality Act

  1. The claimant need not have the relevant protected characteristic. The protection extends to those speaking out on behalf of and/or supporting others who have been discriminated against.

This seems to suggest that JR is not only incorrect to rely on the bench book for her argument, but also that she has misrepresented the contents to the judge. I wonder if NC will do some follow up on this issue today?

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 06:42

Your post at 21:30 is interesting, @Angrymum22 (not least because a few months ago it wouldn't have been let stand) but I found the last sentence of this para particularly interesting - it is something I've been wondering about Fife/Scotland generally, and also the police.

a distinct group, a heterosexual subgroup of the drag movement who are less public and not in the entertainment sector. They are being forced into extinction. They didn’t flaunt their fetish in public, meeting in private groups, basically not bothering anyone. A little bit like the Masons but in dresses, from what I heard quite a few were members of both.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 25/07/2025 06:50

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 21:54

To quote the wonderful Naomi Cunningham.
The answer to that is

No.

Love it! Me neither 😊

rebmacesrevda · 25/07/2025 06:50

@KnottyAuty

The ETBB you've referred to is for England & Wales. There is a Scottish one (of course!) which I've attached, but I've not read. Hopefully they are more-or-less the same but you never know with the gender loonies up here 😬
Maybe in an ET either book can be used; I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if JR was using the wrong one.

https://judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/judicial-institute-publications/20250403-etbb826869956eca4753a2cd716592f975ee.pdf?sfvrsn=af07ff26_1

https://judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/judicial-institute-publications/20250403-etbb826869956eca4753a2cd716592f975ee.pdf?sfvrsn=af07ff26_1

rebmacesrevda · 25/07/2025 06:54

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 06:42

Your post at 21:30 is interesting, @Angrymum22 (not least because a few months ago it wouldn't have been let stand) but I found the last sentence of this para particularly interesting - it is something I've been wondering about Fife/Scotland generally, and also the police.

a distinct group, a heterosexual subgroup of the drag movement who are less public and not in the entertainment sector. They are being forced into extinction. They didn’t flaunt their fetish in public, meeting in private groups, basically not bothering anyone. A little bit like the Masons but in dresses, from what I heard quite a few were members of both.

Someone else mentioned the Masons (or a Masonic-like system) the other day by way of explanation for KS's zealotry. It's a disturbing thought that has not left my head since!

Jerabilis · 25/07/2025 06:56

This is a question for any of the wonderful women here who've got more experience in this area.

I get that there was a massive delay in producing the instant report the investigation report but they had that in December 24.

So what were they doing between December 24 and July 25? Wouldn't it have been a lot better for them to have completed the disciplinary before the employment tribunal started in February?

NebulousDog · 25/07/2025 07:03

#TeamFennel (esp fennel sausages)

Did I imagine it or is JR switching to the GC side in a forthcoming Environment Agency Employment Tribunal?

Cailleach1 · 25/07/2025 07:05

Just a question wrt the original written statement of DU, which was supposed to have been transcribed faithfully from his recorded interview. Recording on which it was said to be from was then wiped. Then that written statement was changed/altered at the request of DU. AG maintains it was really just grammar changes. I don’t know if you’d be that bothered by the grammar. However, my question is whether the IT people could track all the changes that were made, and when. In that way they could work back to the original written statement. Well, we hope the original would be faithful to the recording. Not to be assumed, I suppose.

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 25/07/2025 07:05

@Supporterofwomensrights I think he's more likely to try to emigrate and hope no-one has heard of him.
On Wednesday it felt as though the week was dragging, what with the delayed starts in the morning etc now I'm blinking and wondering how it's Friday already.
Someone else said about it being tiring/exhausting/can't remember the exact word juggling work and following this case. I agree!

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 25/07/2025 07:06

NebulousDog · 25/07/2025 07:03

#TeamFennel (esp fennel sausages)

Did I imagine it or is JR switching to the GC side in a forthcoming Environment Agency Employment Tribunal?

I saw that too. I suppose they have to be willing to work for either side.

anyolddinosaur · 25/07/2025 07:08

Jerabilis I picked that up too. In February Fife wanted to call Sandie into a disciplinary hearing where she had apparently been told there was a risk she'd be fired. I think this may have come out from her solicitor. This may have been a standard letter before a disciplinary hearing but if a December report had effectively cleared Sandie of the allegations what did they think they were playing at?

BugsyMaroon · 25/07/2025 07:08

NebulousDog · 25/07/2025 07:03

#TeamFennel (esp fennel sausages)

Did I imagine it or is JR switching to the GC side in a forthcoming Environment Agency Employment Tribunal?

I bet she's taking notes of NC's approach if she is. Learning at the feet of an expert.

Lougle · 25/07/2025 07:09

BeLemonNow · 24/07/2025 18:42

On a hen related note, the sexing of chicks is a controversial issue at my allotment. We aren't allowed cockerels but a few have appeared, claiming they thought they were hens. Others disagree. Whispered conversations on the grassy margins. Drama galore.

https://grubblyfarms.com/blogs/the-flyer/how-to-identify-a-rooster-vs-hen?srsltid=AfmBOoopxGRSnbDr5-ULCH-zeuMhakeInU6x0G5LM70Je1dR3Egylxv-

This article gives a great guide to sexing hens and roosters. Roosters have obviously different features to hens, although in some case they may not be easily observed at birth.

Pity it's not so simple in humans. Oh, wait....

A rooster with two hens in a field–the rooster is showing typical rooster posture and feather coloration

How to Identify a Rooster vs Hen

Are you waiting for your chicken to crow to decide if it’s a rooster? Skip the wait. Identify a rooster vs. hen using these other techniques, even when they are young chicks!

https://grubblyfarms.com/blogs/the-flyer/how-to-identify-a-rooster-vs-hen?srsltid=AfmBOoopxGRSnbDr5-ULCH-zeuMhakeInU6x0G5LM70Je1dR3Egylxv-

Conxis · 25/07/2025 07:12

Jerabilis · 25/07/2025 06:56

This is a question for any of the wonderful women here who've got more experience in this area.

I get that there was a massive delay in producing the instant report the investigation report but they had that in December 24.

So what were they doing between December 24 and July 25? Wouldn't it have been a lot better for them to have completed the disciplinary before the employment tribunal started in February?

I expect there were too many people on annual leave

DeanElderberry · 25/07/2025 07:14

Anyhow, the important stuff.

Celery: Old style blanched stuff, white stalks, non-stringy - delicious raw, and occasions for using an early 20th c celery glass, very nice filled with squeezy Primula cheese. or other cheese. Good cooked.

Modern green stuff, best cooked.

Julienne sticks of celery and potatoes cooked together with olive oil and butter are heaven, very good with any roast or grilled meat dish, a mix of soft and absorbent, and crisp gold crunchy bits. Do well in the air fryer.

Essential in soffrito, make up a bag for the freezer.

Never overcook celery, it brings out a very unpleasant flavour (as with brassicas)

Fennel. Bliss: seeds, feathery leaves, and best of all, bulbs.

The bulbs are good raw, but sublime cooked very slowly over low heat in butter and olive oil until they turn soft.

Pork meat balls containing fennel seeds (soak for 20 mins first to soften them) cooked in the oven over sliced fennel bulbs and served with a sauce made with fresh tomatoes and a little chopped fennel leaf is a delicious easy dinner.

phew, I've been wanting to say that for days.

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