NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

I'd like to highlight that the video record will show her having a little giggle after she referred to Isla Bumba as Isla Bryson.

Screams fecking double standards to me to be demanding apologies after she calls her own witness by a rapist's name whilst simultaneously saying that SP even "alluding" to Bryson is a hate crime.

ive missed some previous info , could some one tell what prompted NC to say No

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Upton household. I wonder if they are keeping up with the tribunal online?

I wonder if Dr Upton is sleeping well...

JR kicked up a fuss about NC referring to DU as a man and using he/him pronouns. The judge asked NC if she'd like to reflect on it. NC said no and then in the next sentence referred to DU as him. 🤭😊

It was excellent, even by her standards.

Then after lunch NC came back with a really strong, clear statement. I was glad she did that because JR has repeatedly interrupted and NC seems to have patiently endured quite a bit of (what seemed to be as a novice observer) to be a lot of old nonsense designed to waste time and create distractions because she's got very little else to aid her defence.

You can read it here on TT: https://archive.ph/kwuGg

NC - of counsel for parties, I've engaged in no attacks or professionalism, my objection to the premise on langauge

NC - was flatly factual, about language. Beyond doubt JR is exorcised no doubt on instruction of client on the qu of language. nothing arguably pejorative about exorcised, not did I accuse her of heresy. One aspect of C case, is SP has been treated as heretic deserving of punish

NC - ment, someone who won't pay lip service to GI belief system. Not novel or fanciful, in addams v edin rape centre, heresy hunt in those words were used. I have no time impuning JR professionalism, converse not true. Clear from public part, and to a greater degree in private

NC - same time JR granted repeated objecton to DU correct sex pronouns on which you have already ruled. JR does not suggest grounds to revisit, nor appealed. JR suggests my use or ordinary language interferes with art 6 rights, despite that imp claim only inviting me to reflect

NC - quite a lot of time wasted that way. So C team has reflected, in response to asymmetry not to be contemplated at this stage. Suggest we resume and complete evidence, but ask any further speeches about my language are restrained unless there's an application

Fennelphobe

Nah, I’m just fennel critical. I’m quite prepared to go all the way to the Supreme Court to have it proved that fennel - and indeed anything that tastes of aniseed - can identify as an acceptable foodstuff all it likes but the reality is very different.

R.e. tribunal am flagging a little keeping up. Important point imho was confirmation that Dr. Upton's account of missing child was contradicted by witness:

NC - [reads] What she told u about was a convo between DU and SP about a child going missing. That is a clear contradiction of what DU said as he said he wouldn't interact and this evidence of a convo.
"RA evidence to u was a flat contradiction to what DU told u?
AG - yes was different to what DU said"

I dislike fennel and celery.

unfortunately for anyone working in the NHS from the comments I've seen from the auditors. That TWAW is baked into NHS policy , and they all have to toe the line and this mess is the result , whatever the people involved private feelings on the matter are

Upton doesn't recognise facts so he could be sleeping very well and not find the situation of being in a court an issue. He likes to be different, thinks he's special and may be missing the reality that this case is happening because he's a man.
His friends and family tell him he's right and when he looks in a mirror maybe he doesn't see the man we do (or avoids mirrors). That or even he can face the truth and thinks, stuff everyone the lie works for me.
Regardless, the truth keeps coming out because it has a habit of doing that like slipping and using the correct pronouns. Sandie should sleep well as she's saying the truth and single sex facilities matter.

He still has to shave his MALE facial hair every morning though, doesn't he?
(And possibly again, around 5 pm?)

I don’t know how any of them sleep, i’ve been up late all week reading commentary on the whole thing, i’ve got so sucked into it!

That'll be his female facial hair.....he'll probably claim PCOS for that.

Laser hair removal usually

Its all a fetish they fancy themselves when they are dressed as a woman, sometimes its completely covered up fantasising about being a teacher or a librarian but they always wear ‘sexy’ underwear underneath and then there is some that just wear practically nothing and it all for the same reason - to get off!

Then there are some who like the idea of being seen as a medical professional lets say a doctor and since nurses are already sexualised at the slightest opportunity what better way to combine exhibitionism and voyeurism than to suddenly feel ‘trans’ as a male doctor and start dressing as a woman and then position yourself being around vulnerable nurses in a state of undress, then have women defend you and protect your feelings (which all falls under the bdsm umbrella) when the nurses say this is a man in our changing room!!

People have commented on his 5 o'clock shadow, I think?

No clue other than that's the common approach. Was watching on too small a screen.

Other convo - whoever doesn't like fennel may like winter savory.

Its so much more than autogynephilia tho thats one of the things that really makes my blood boil, for instance menophilia is the one that really grossed me out, i watched a film a while ago and the subject matter was menophilia i knew of most fetishes but ill admit this one shocked me and i was even more shocked to find there are lots of men that are into it and then a few weeks later i read a post on X about a ‘trans’ who had watched a young lady discard her sanitary products waited til she left and rifled through the bin picked it out and proceed to use it and then went into the garage where she was working and struck up a conversation with her which he said lasted 20 mins and he felt euphoric knowing he had her discarded product in his underwear and then said he may go back there again to take advantage of the situation he said the young lady was in her mid to late teens.. these men are into all sorts of gross things and i wish people knew it because the wouldnt be crying ‘you’re transphobic’ every second sentence if they did!!

Although to be fair in this particular case there’s no hint of that from DU.

It's even better than a PP described it, because JR asks the judge to ask NC to reflect, so he does & she says, "No," & carries on. I wish I'd seen it live; this is from TT. You can find the TTs here:

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6

I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I think partly knowing it could be years of hell was another reason I was put off escalating it back then.

If I knew then what I know now, it would be a different story. I've grown unafraid of rocking the boat.

I'm so glad your tribunal is over and congratulations on your victory. It's well earned.

for @Dogsrbrill

Yes. It was an “urgent” incident . If it hadn’t been urgent they would have sent it out to a stone mason to be chiselled out on slabs of marble in a very fancy font , which would have taken at least twenty years, by which time Sandie would have retired and DU would be reigning supreme over the entire Fife medical fraternity because no one had the courage to object to him and his handmaids staging a coup.

Unfortunately for Sandie she had to change her clothing mid shift because she was having an unexpected and very heavy period, and her mid shift change coincided with DU at the end of his shift needing to use the FCR to wash his hands.

( I think most women seeing another woman having to change under such circumstances would have asked if there was anything they could do, eg fetch clean scrubs/ sanitary protection and then given her some privacy)