NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

This is incorrect. The law has not changed, the SC clarified interpretation of it.

Interpreting the law incorrectly is not an excuse.

Which is why the witnesses shouldn’t be on a shared email chain.

From TT

NC - Shouldn't u have been saying important not to have any more conversations
AG - I asked them to speak about coming together not ix
NC - You'll know by now KS had been vigorously briefing colleagues about SP since December. I can take u to them. 720

NC - You've seen that before today?
AG - in the bundle yes
NC - 270 as well. That's an email from KS forwarding DU challenging incident, no (s)orry its responding to other group of people and saying will let others consultants know

[NC takes through further docs]

NC - so u know now KS had been vigorously communicating? Do u agree ur ix was already badly compromised

AG - I dont think mix was compromised. I hadn't seen any of this

Fifer : aye the auld 'what the een dinnae see, the hert cannae grief". It's a classic fer a reason like ken.

NC - KS could accompany DU, departure from usual procedure?

AG - no anyone can A colleague. Not unusual. It was first time I'd been asked for a witness to come with another person so first time for me.
NC - rules being bent for DU?

The Ring can no longer restrain itself. Another Orange blerp - this one sustained for the time it took NC to notice and tap it against the table. It acquiesces, falls back into dark passivity.

NC - thats an exchange between 22-23rd may between u and DU. U send him his notes of interview and ask to review. He writes back to say notes are accurate let me know if u need anything further
AG - yes

Given KS is a Dr and bound to be honest in accordance with the GMC code, I'm unsure what this shocking revelation that she has in fact at some points been ever so slightly less than 100% honest might mean. Does it mean that she will automatically cease to be a Dr? Or that the GMC code, or the GMC itself, will cease to exist? Might she vanish in a puff of smoke or perhaps turn into a nurse (we know they're all liars anyway)? Brace! Brace!

Is the tribunal being live streamed? How can we view it? Thanks :)

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing how this addressed in the summing up.

JR said earlier that she planned to argue that the SC decision doesn't apply to 'toilets'.

This is a changing room, but the SC judgement does reference toilets, so it might be that she is arguing that the SC decision doesn't apply to the 1992 H&S at work regulations which mandate either single sex toilets and changing rooms or single occupancy rooms. Not clear how she is going to argue that a completely different line of reasoning would be relevant when defining sex in different legislation.

However Both Isla Bumba and Kate Searle seemed to have taken their guidance from the Equality Act legislation on services and been oblivious to the H&S regs, so whatever they thought they were doing was very definitely covered by the SC judgement.

I can't work out how KS is going to thread her way through all this.

In relation to JR wishing NC in hell, I'm reminded of a bit in That 70's Show where Laurie is staring at her brother, hissing inside her head 'burst into flames, burst into flames, burst into flames!'.

its getting weird. Wonder how Zoe Upton feels.

Uh oh. More meetings with DU with no notes taken whatsoever. How very fucking convenient

Remember that JR intends to argue that the SC judgement does not mean that female changing rooms have to be only for biological females. Also, Fife are attempting to show that, even if they were wrong about allowing Upton in the changing rooms, their actions against SP were justified.

As if Zoe Upton doesn't have enough emotional trauma to be dealing with 😂

And ignored the guidance in the Act that says you can discriminate against those with the PC of GR because of reasons of privacy, safety and dignity for the opposite sex.

NC has scented blood in the water.

Don't know. But as I really want this thread to continue, and as she isn't culpable for his actions, I think it might be wise to keep her name out of things.

I don’t think this is correct, I’m sure both sides share documents in advance precisely so no trial by ambush occurs. They go through the discovery process to prepare their cases to the best of their ability.

They must have been spending a heck of a lot of time together, given he was in need of such a lot of “support”.
I almost feel sorry for KS.

Anyone thinking this is a class thing as well? Like KS and BU are probably solidly middle class whereas SP is more likely to be working class due to occupation etc?

Loads of us have been thinking that class is a big component here.

This witness has admitted seeing the bundle. Witnesses are not supposed to see the testimony of others. Either she's been following online (told not to) or she's been coached (not allowed).

And she should realise that witnesses talking to each other did compromise her investigation.

Oh definitely.

I wonder what AG’s demeanour is. She seems to be winding the rope around everyone’s neck (herself included)

There's a recording??!

Those observing, What's AGs body language looking like now?

Can anyone let me know how to ask the court for access to the live link?

Thanks!

From TT

NC - that bland exchange would give impression that there'd been no earlier draft
AG - I was sending the notes
NC - to someone who hasn't seen any other it would look like that was all there was. U sent notes, he sent back and approved
AG - yes
NC - misleading wasnt it?

Fifer : NC seems tae hae drapped a gear here, so that questions have mair torque. Ah ken that soond the engine maks : when she flairs it there will be skid marks. No jist on the road, ken.

AG - I don't agree.

NC - [another page] thats q0 days earlier isnt it. DU writes on 14th may [reads]. And looks for guidance as to how he can make editorial changes
AG - witnesses are allowed to do that
NC - he writes on same day and asks if he can listen to the recording
NC - U say transcribed was deleted but [reads 'xould meet up and go through notes'] he accepts. Did u have that meeting?
AG - teams meeting
NC - any notes of it?
AG - no. I msgd to MSF and she said it was ok to discuss

NC - was that a message
AG - no a teams call
NC - have u just realised there'd be a trace of a msg?
AG - I tend to call people
NC - so it would show that there'd been a call with Michele that day?
AG - maybe day before

Fifer : oh shite, that subaru is aboot tae lae oot some doughnuts on the kirkcaldy prom! (Ange is the prom in this metaphor ken). In case ye didnae git that.

NC - is it normal practice to meet up with a witness to discuss notes?
AG - first time its been asked of me. Normally ppl agree with notes or they dont.
NC - all those interactions between u and DU, noone else copied?
AG - no

NC - turn here and u will see similar exchange. We see exchange between EC admin and Dr Pitt copied to u. So that approval of notes was admin team?
AG - all notes went out from the admin team.
NC - DU picked the matter up direct with u and didnt copy anyone else in?
AG - yes

Fifer : aw very cosy. Like ma gran's front room in her wee cooncil bungalow, three pair o curtain, three bars on.