NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

I see JR is not jumping in to stop NC from calling Isla Bryson a man.

Doesn't KS know that SP was cleared?

The only person KS is crying for is herself. She realises she has been caught out, and she is becoming increasingly aware of the huge personal reputational damage that will come as a result of her behaviour.

Back with explanation of poss.Bryson ref.

KS testimony is a key hammer blow to NHS Fife. Her behaviour is all judge, jury and executioner but when faced with NC …… how things turn.

She is another one who knows she has to move to Australia for work.

Thank you! That's exactly the kind of pointer I meant. Only I don't know enough to follow it 😣. I go to a post in February? (is there more than one?). How do I "cross-reference" with something on substack? Meaning search for the specific witness on substack? And I'm not sure what TT refers to. (Not in list of acronyms at begin of this post.) Anyway, I realize all that ignorance turns answering it into a bit of a time sink, so totally understand if there's other things you need to do 😁.

Re: Pete the Plumber. Dr Kathleen Stock once said that the whole trans rights debate only really affected women that didn’t pass, bc TW who do pass get to move through the world exactly as they please. But that’s one of the things that strikes me as so cruel about GI - the stark inequality between TW who pass, and those who don’t. It’s unjust that appearance can make such a difference; and yet it does.

It’s conceivable that there’s one or more other TW quietly working away in NHS Fife - in fact, given the numbers, it’s likely even - and not one of the dramatics personae involved in this case is aware of that fact.

Note to K Searle:
Kind is what you see yourself as.
What you are, in fact, is wrong when it comes to gender ideology, and vindictive when it comes to Sandy Peggie.

I'm not clear from TT what the result of the Bryson ref discussion was.
Anyway, it will be used against SP&legal team🙄

Overall, it’s an uncomfortable few hours on the witness stand. This will not affect her role or later honours/awards and promotions at all. The same is true for the other staff.
This is the NHS and the current state of the professional regulators.

That's an obvious lie, surely that's contempt of court? It's objectively very clear that Upton is male.

If they really, really want to base this on passing, then they will need to find a man who has not gone through male puberty and done nothing more than shave and grow his hair long.

He has male pattern balding, for a start. He is over 6 foot tall. He has a male jaw, male brown, male shoulders, male voice. This is so absurd.

Bit like that lassie who was a trainee barrister when she decided (for reasons best known to herself) to go on Big Brother back in the day.

At least she had the good sense to get off the hamster wheel round about day 5.

it's back on - NC/K again

Think Pete ran out during the break, looking for a consultant to walk him to his car in the ET carpark.

Yay for the judge big sond - KS just admitted DU didn't say Isla Bryson

"Throughout the tribunal Ms Peggie’s lawyers have referred to Dr Upton as a man and used he/him pronouns. She has done the same today and NHS Fife’s lawyer Jane Russell KC has interjected and said her questioning is “unfair” as Dr Upton “is not a man, she is a trans woman”.

The judge asks Ms Cunningham to respond to this, and she says for the purposes of the Equality Act and the actions taken forward by For Women Scotland, a trans woman is a man and therefore it is fair to describe the situation in question as a man in the female changing room.

The judge says he does not agree with that line of argument, and says it is a “contentious matter”. ( from The Scotsman live blog )

So is the JUDGE disagreeing with the Supreme Court's decision now?!

It seems like the Bryson angle is all they've got, so keep throwing the mud in the hope some sticks.

KS - no, it was a well known case, like saying DU is like a convicted rapist in a F prison
NC - saying SP said isla bryson
KS - I think we just agreed that is what she meant
J - qu was did she use the words
KS - no she didn't

Thank you judge!

I have relatives who live in Oz. I don't think they're anywhere near as trans-captured as the UK, if rellies are to be believed.

Maybe Canada?

I thought that one would be a surefire "don't recall."

From TT

We resume:
NC - no need to apply to resile, paragraph says prison sitn, and the isla bryson case mention is explanatory. SP said I couldnt' remember name at time, but that a TW was in prison.
J - disputed he's a rapist?
NC - no but not SP may not have know was a rapist at the
JR - quote...
NC - that isn't contrary to what I said.
NC - allusion to rapist, same in datix, that's your interpretation of what DU said
KS - no that's what sh esaid verbally
NC - neither you or DU had basis for saying Sandie compared DU to a rapist. The point was DU presence was wrong in the same way a mna in F prison is wrong.
KS - no, it was a well known case, like saying DU is like a convicted rapist in a F prison
NC - saying SP said isla bryson
KS - I think we just agreed that is what she meant
J - qu was did she use the words
KS - no she didn't use the words Isla Bryson.

Fifer : Big Sond has had tae get involved. got tae assume the Hoggs of Fife bag containin the guid bits is still lyin ben. NC disnae need to flog that horse ony mair. It's fit for a farmfoods lasagne by this point.

NC - turn to ?71, continuing on his account of incident, he says she wouldn't let it go, i repeated formal channels and appropriate conv. He kept saying not appropriate time, channels and only left when she agreed to.
KS - correct
NC - he wouldn't leave or end conv till she did what he wanted
KS - not clear
NC - nothing stopping him leaving was there
KS - DU said maybe layout meant Sp was in the way
NC - blocking him
KS - between her and door

Oh dear, Google ‘Tickle vs Giggle’

Arguably Australia is worse.

Not sure if "dramatics personae" was intentional, but loving the aptness.

I strongly suspect KS believed she was a good person doing a good thing and in the process justified a lot of behaviour that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It also explains why she was so invested in the outcome.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions....

I had to walk away on page two when JR misrepresented the SC ruling.

I mean... WHAAAAT?? Isn't it her fucking job to know this stuff? She is a KC for FS.

Cup of tea. Breathe.