NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

We can refrain from posting here. But I'm sure she will get named in the press now so that ship seems to have sailed. If Upton named her in the internal investigation, I don't think she could refuse to participate. She would have been contacted by the investigating team (although Searle also took it upon herself to stick her nose in and question her) At best the only thing she could have done is say that she couldn't recall. Seems to work for everyone else at Fife

I’m really struggling to keep up, but presumably Peggie is sat in the courtroom with a friend whilst KS accuses her of being a racist hateful nurse?

Imagine finishing giving evidence and discovering that Sandie was cleared by the investigation on all counts due to lack of evidence.

To take your mind off things, you buy the local paper(s)…and spend some time on X.

Back in February NC introduced Pete the manly (possible plumber) to the tribunal to ask witnesses (ED?) whether they’d object to him strolling into the female changing rooms. Turned out they would. Mumsnet likes Pete.

@BeLemonNow They do a thought experiment column every week in the NS.

SP said she had never heard of Bryson and was only talking about males in female prisons. And DU admitted he assumed she meant Bryson

iirc, Cialdini and the consistency principle would predict this (also Lifton). I’m thinking of the work with Prisoners of War who denounced their own country in videos because of this. (Armed Forces learned from this and later drilled forces in resisting interrogation and other techniques.)

KS is protecting or attempting to protect at least KS but making a mess of it. The tears flow as she knows she is in the shit. No sympathy from me.

Unfortunately you could only select ONE option so I prioritised concerns for patient safety. 😇

This, over and over and over again. Are doctors and other HCPs still trained and expected not to judge anyone? Is this where the suicidal empathy comes from?

Disputing the agreed facts sounds unusual and looks like it risks pissing off the judge. Plus it takes up time. NC may decide it's not worth it if she can deal with the Bryson thing another way.

Yes that was shocking.

I would be very distressed if NC told me I was unkind.

But I wouldn’t have expected KS to care about pleasing NC. She isn’t an authority in KS’s world.

I don't see the relevance anyway - if you are going to mention prison then surely the obvious thing to do is bring up the most high profile case, the case people are most likely to know, therefore the case that is most likely to make your point clear. Unsurprisingly the most high profile case was not a man claiming to be a woman who was an imprisoned shoplifter.

New Scientist? I imagine they do...

Sorry can't resist. It's a bit doomsday for me.

I agree with@FeedbackProviderthat JR did a good job of spotting that NC's argument was taking her away from the agreed facts. That's a very neat spanner for JR to throw into the works.

NC - was it's like the situation in the prisons, DU own account was situation in prisons. Not about a rapist, its about a place where women can expect F only spae JR - no it's agreed bryson was mentioned.
J - do you have uncontested facts doc? Read out details
JR - C refered to prison situation, Bryson Graham case. Agreed not disputed.
J - Do you accept NC - I accept JR read it correctly. Must be entitled to put to KS the 2nd respondant said when he said it was like sitn in prisons, v sim to his written account. J - asking about another witness

I can't see that NC will be finished her cross of KS today with all the breaks.

I don’t disagree.

I think it shows how otherwise good people can end up doing bad/stupid/harmful things.

I strongly suspect KS believed she was a good person doing a good thing and in the process justified a lot of behaviour that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It also explains why she was so invested in the outcome.

I think it is part of the crux of the institutional capture. You weaponise people’s sense of being a good person and doing the right thing because they become personally invested in supporting your position. They have to be right or their self image is fractured.

Is Pete still in the room? Can you see him?

R.e. KS she's going to be in a heightened emotional state as it is her email, widely accepted in NHS Fife as inappropriate, that has over a million views on X.

New Statesman

So are the tears because interrogation is inevitably taxing, or because interrogation when trying to maintain cognitive dissonance is inevitably taxing?

Absolutely dreadful performance by KS. Well that’s what the mean girls deserve. They have bullied a nurse thinking they would get away with it. How many other nurses have been subjected to this level of pressure?

Tribunal Tweets@tribunaltweets 15m (ago)

NC - then explains it.
J - cannot take evidence on agreed fact, need a break. 10 mins

Big Sond is never late, neither is he ever early. Big Sond comes back fae his break, precisely when he means tae

She can’t cope with her self-constructed identity being dismantled by others pointing out the reality, and becomes demonstratively emotional.

Now, where have we seen that before?