NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

Fair ‘nuff @nauticant, apols. I’m a scientist, respond to the inexplicable by trying to figure out an explanation. But fair point.

Thanks for clarifying, and for all your expert insights, which I have found very helpful.

(It is the problem with such a long thread. Should you respond when you read an early post, or hold your fire till the end and then never find it again. :) )

Yes

I suspect that many people who change position on a belief system move through a Charlotte phase.

Jumping straight from Billy Graham to Richard Dawkins is probably less common than going through an agnostic phase in between.

Don’t the witnesses have access to the bundle? I sure as shit wouldn’t put myself in front of even a half asleep barrister without knowing the source material inside out and back to front.

Thank you for the information. Agree it was a good thing.

And was in no way intended as a slight on TT to be clear - I just wondered if it had come about as a result of NHS Fife's accusations.

Thing is I don't think it is just "left leaning". I also don't want to lower the tone but I think big girl pants aka full briefs are much better than those whispy nothing thong things my 30 year old DD considers proper underpinnings. Which DU may have struggled with in the containment department.

Absolutely.

I grew up with a trans identified male in our extended family. I was introduced to the idea through "be kind" instructions and I remember it being impressed upon me that preferred pronouns and new name were v important signifiers of the kindness. I never really questioned any of it, knew this person for themselves and only saw them v occasionally so did as instructed and as everyone around me was doing.

This was so long ago, v much before it became "a thing" and I had not in anyway thought about the wider repercussions.

Now I am a mother I have very strong feelings about women and girls' participation in sport, in privacy, dignity and safeguarding. I am absolutely revolted by where we have got to.

I was very much Charlotte and am so so SP now, to the extent that I've skirted v close to getting myself in bother at work and socially. Not sure I can hand on heart say I'm anything like as brave as SP has had to be and I hope I never have to find out. She's absolutely breathtakingly incredible to have been under this much concerted pressure and nastiness and not backed down.

"Speak up for the truth, even if your voice wavers"

Or whatever the quote is.

I think this is the clear distinction between LM and KS. LM had studied that bundle!

Another good reason for centralising the NHS. Trusts don't work.

Yes agreed, the dysfunctional behaviour isn't helped by the cowardice of the people around them who won't raise it.

These are all adults paid to be effective.

My photos never get approved but look at this brilliant photo and headline if you can 😁www.heraldscotland.com/news/25336963.witness-peggie-tribunal-admits-confidentiality-in-ruin/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1753291722

Perhaps some of them had a sneaking sympathy for Sandie, or at least a suspicion DU was a trouble maker. Or possibly more likely were horrified by the way KS had acted as judge and jury and blabbed what should be a confidential matter to every one. I wouldn't respond to an email like that either.

have attempted to transcribe using audio recognition software in the past - it was not accurate as did not understand Scottish accents!!

Other thoughts

Disclosure

KS said - I didn't know personal emails would
be made public this way.

This is just plain stupid. But also she never expected her behaviour to come to light. It has done. Not thinking you had to provide your emails doesn’t defend non compliance with disclosure obligations.

Rounding up witnesses

NC - the mendion of health care assist seemed to upset you a great deal why
KS - i spoke to her about being a witness, didn't herself or her name to be involved in this case.

There was no case - it was an internal investigation that has led to nothing - Sandy brought the case. She’s conflating the two.

Grossly improper

NC - do you agree if you sought her out then, it would be grossly improper
KS - yes
NC - so would have been after July date, or grossly improper.
KS - most likely after during discussion

Looking for facts to fit one side of story

NC - you were determined on DU behalf to round up support for his turn of events weren't you
KS - I asked her to see if her story supported Beth

She didn’t say it was important to hear her version of what happened - she only cared if she supported Beth

A true believer

NC - are you saying this hangs on SP waiting for her to come out of the cubicle or that she waited
KS - both are offensive and objectionable

Even if Sandy waited to have her own privacy when the man had left it was considered to be offensive and objectionable. Not engaging was enough for her to be found guilty by the judge jury and executioner.

I mean wowsers.

That's rubbish, isn't it? There must be so much re-inventing the wheel (for those trusts that even bother, unlike Fife).So wasteful.

Or, if we’re being scrupulously fair, she may have other shit going on which is totally unconnected with the case but the stress and anxiety overwhelmed her at that point.

She may well have been totally stitched up by Lottie Myles who has clearly prepared well. LM’s evidence did have holes in it, but by presenting herself as the voice of reason and being familiar with her evidence she became a far more credible witness (imho). Much better political operator than KS who may have overrelied on her self image as a kind, honest and trustworthy consultant. And who appears to even now, have no idea that her actions were completely inappropriate as a senior leader - one that should have recused herself from any role in the aftermath of the CR incident if she could not adopt a disinterested approach.

JR objected so the judge said they will both have to include it in their submissions.
JR position I think that FWS is on the narrow ground of reps on public boards. NC may argue that the judgement set out its working & will apply across the board. So this case may be a big test of FWS generality.

https://archive.ph/JRtYV#selection-843.9-869.83:~:text=NC%20%2D%20man.%20He%27s,there%2C%20he%20said

Sadly, I believe that is an urban legend.

Know a lot about this particular enquiry. It lasted for 13 months.

It's not a trial but an employment tribunal and applications to watch had to be in by July 9th.

I do not doubt that Paula Vennells believes she is a good person, proven by the fact that she is a priest.

That would be unusual punctuation. I would certainly type "Re corridor discussion", as re just means "about" or "concerning". I have never come across "Re:" except in email subjects, and then always for a reply.

It's a bit confusing but I think Charlotte Myles is also known as Lottie Myles within the department so TT use both

I've also been confused by ED. Sometimes Esther Davidson and sometimes (what I assume must be) Emergency Department

The missing witness has been named in the Herald - I won't name her here.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/25336963.witness-peggie-tribunal-admits-confidentiality-in-ruin/