NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

KS is setting her credibility, and possibly her career, on fire for this mediocre man, and it is absolutely unbelievable. Maybe it’s a form of Stockholm syndrome?

1. She didn't think for one moment that her credibility would be questioned. Did she not say at one point (and I'm paraphrasing) that she never thought her emails would end up as evidence in a tribunal?

1. This is not just any old mediocre man, this is a trans mediocre man. She thought she was a heroine of The Right Side of History in pandering to him. Again, did she not pretty much wail at one point (paraphrasing again) "I was just beeeing kiiiind!"?

Short answer no.
I started off assuming DU would be a very vulnerable character and that NHSF had done him and SP wrong by messing up their policy.
Then I saw DU on the witness stand and the scales fell from my eyes.
At 6ft1 with a male frame and the beginnings of male pattern baldness, DU was not one of the trans women who seamlessly pass.
Then there were a number of mannerisms - DU unfastening their jacket with one hand in that male businessman/member of the rotary club way.
Not realising that he was visible on camera as he tried to give NC hard/intimidating stares on the way to the door during breaks.
Arranging or agreeing to have his 2 friends sit behind NC to try to intimidate her and read her screen. They wouldn't move when NC asked. The judge had to intervene.
Vulnerable no longer seemed at all relevant to my perception of DU and that is before I get on to the completed wild things DU said under oath.

That really is one of the biggest problems with the NHS it's not National. It's around two hundred separate local fiefdoms all reinventing the wheel. They all invent their own policies (or not in the case of NHS Fife). They have different computer systems, different training, different policies etc etc

KnottyAuty’s description matches my opinion having seen DU’s evidence.
which I suppose is a small point in favour of KS; she can’t have cheated an watched DU’s evidence or she’d have known her “Beth is the loveliest, gentlest person eva” is risible to anyone who saw him at the tribunal.

@Enough4me From the moment he arrived in a&e upton was keeping notes about any colleague who didnt do exactly as he wanted. He's an over 6 foot tall well connected middle class doctor, a former hockey player and Sandie, a 50 year old very much smaller (5ft 3?) woman was alone with him between her and the door. She had reason to fear him both physically and for what he could do to her career.

She'd tried to avoid him before but on Christmas Eve, stressed by the bleeding, she asked him to leave.

No, he doesnt act like a woman at all.

Now I understand why NHS released the findings of the internal I/x the evening before the tribunal and why that expressed it as they did.

It becomes clearer and clearer that KS was doing a lot of manipulation behind the scenes but push came to shove when they realised her email to the consultants would be revealed.

They needed to get it out before credibility was fully lost. The entire I/x has been compromised by KS.

They have worded it as they have because the know DU is gearing up for their own ET for constructive dismissal and hostile working environment.

Their report on their finding did what they thought played both sides — it cleared SP but reprimanded her at same time.

But the allegations support the charge of harrassment.

Oh what karma it would be if she could be found guilty of a criminal offence and placed in a women’s prison.

I’m sure Kate would manage to work out if her cell mate was male or female quickly enough - without the need to check their chromosomes!!!!

This tribunal has been fascinating in showing the different ways people react to being told to believe something they don't and can't.

Some like Sandie reject the belief entirely.

Some like Dr Searle try to force themselves to believe it and thus become very upset and angry when they're confronted with the fact it doesnt make sense.The Sandies must therefore be silenced.

Then there's Charlotte Myles who clearly doesnt believe it (and doesnt feel guilty about this) but thinks its kind to act as if she does. Hence shes able to be much more respectful to the Sandie position since shes not threatened by it.

At work those of my colleagues who've expressed an opinion on the trans issue are Charlottes, as is my daughter.

Me, I think I'm much too Sandie for the TRAs and probably too Charlotte for many on this board.

From the POV of Rihanna, I'd say she had everything to lose and nothing to gain from getting involved, whatever her personal views. In her shoes, I'd be steering clear if I could.

The tricky thing about this is probably that KS has no idea that this is the case. If you do write about it, especially if you are covering senior women, then do try to look at the alternative perspective. Noone will have told KS they don't like this behaviour so it's likely she will never have had a chance to consider behaving another way. It will be a horrible shock and I do feel sympathetic in that regard - although I don't like her attitude in the evidence today. But there is something specific about how women get a reputation the older and more powerful they get, which works against them. If you can dig into that and advise younger women on how to avoid that trap you would really be on to something!

I wonder how many other women were uncomfortable but didn't say anything. Maybe got changed in a toilet cubicle (I think it was referred to that some did that for whatever reason) or just quickly changed with eyes averted and left as quickly as possible. I'd guarantee it was quite a lot.

i have been following when I get a chance but nowhere near up to date. However, this post caught my eye and I hope it is ok for me to comment. Speaking as the mother of a trans child with Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria in late teens, I think it is highly unlikely that KS has a trans child. If she did, she would likely have educated herself on the dangers of “be kind” and would recognise the danger in solidifying this social contagion by using requested pronouns etc.
How can a senior NHS doctor not have read the scientific literature, limited as it is, on this topic. I think there should be serious repercussions for any medic or teacher who does not fully inform themselves on all sides of the gender debate. There is too much at stake for our autistic young people, to whom we owe a duty of care.

It has being suggested she realised she was being led to a point where she had to tell the truth or perjure herself.

Thanks it's interesting to hear beyond the photos and reports.
I thank luck (as I don't believe in God) that I haven't gone through what Sandie has gone through with this man to then be in court with him (& friends) still claiming him to be a woman.

Someone on X suggested Brian Blessed as BU, I think that’s hilarious 😂 you can imagine him going around bellowing ‘I am BIOLOGICAL, and my identity is FEMALE, therefore I am a BIOLOGICAL FEMALE’.

Reminds me of the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry. “I’m a good person”, was mentioned once or twice, by those who were involved in that scandal. We did also got performative tears once or twice, I seem to recall.

Just a thought that maybe BBC on GC side as anyone of these witnesses looking on BBC would think all is well? They’re like a double agent??

Most of us started as Charlotte and then increasingly went "are you having a bloody laugh" and became Sandie.

The important thing about Bryson in that context is that he is the only well known troon whose picture was all over the papers with the outline of his willy showing through his tights, so he was actually used by SP as an example of a very male troon rather than as a rapist.

To reiterate, JR has made it clear that she intends to argue that the SC ruling only applies to representation on public bodies and does not apply here. The judge cannot say anything at this stage to suggest he has made up his mind on this point. Therefore, when NC argued that the SC ruling meant she could refer to Upton as a man, the judge could not agree. If he had, he would have given Fife grounds for appeal (assuming they lose). I'm not sure why NC referred to the Equality Act at this point. She could simply have pointed out that the judge had already ruled SP's team could use male pronouns to refer to Upton.

This.

Absolutely this.

No, it was not for the benefit of TT or because of Rs fault finding with our work.

ET in Scotland - witnesses do not do written statements. Their evidence in chief is elicited through examination and then tested in cross examination. This means that copious notes are required or a transcript. They secured funding (I do not know how) to pay the steno team for the second half.

And given the kerfuffle about 'agreed facts' I say it's a good thing.

@Kalalily with you there.
As someone who has seen this ideology damage my family so deeply it is fascinating, cathartic but infuriating to see how the wild fire of this ‘theory’ has been blown through our young people, the flames being fanned by the idiocy and complacency of people who should know better - the Bumbas, Searles, Milnes, Davidsons of this world. And of course, the board who allow all this to go on, unchecked.
So when we as parents say ,’No, it’s not possible to change sex’ we are cast aside as young people look to those who are telling them what they want to hear.

LGB Alliance paid for transcripts of the Mermaids action and then published these. It may be linked on TT Substack but not sure.