NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

Do we know who the panel members are?

JR - wasn't aware there was a transcript

WTF does think the 2 stenographers have been doing?

😂😂

Is it possible that the judge is saying things to scupper any appeals on the grounds of him not having been fair enough to Fife, should they lose?

She's all over the place. I bet she'll be going straight to a bar after this

But the Supreme Court was clarifying existing law so it already applies and always has.. 🤦‍♀️😁

Was it K Searle's position that no consultants responded to her initial poison-pen email on 29 Dec?

I think you have misunderstood, when you hit reply to an email, it automatically add "Re:" to the subject heading. Therefore you know it is a reply to an email. It would be very unusual to type in Re: in the subject if it's the first email. For example, if I wrote an email about foot in mouth, I'd title the subject line "foot in mouth", if you replied to me, it would say "Re: foot in mouth" in the subject line. It's an email quirk.

No, JR has already said she intends to argue that the SC ruling is only about representation on public bodies and has nothing to do with changing rooms. The fact the ruling had not been made is irrelevant. Once the SC rules on the meaning of a piece of legislation, that has always been the meaning since it became an Act of Parliament. The fact that some people thought it meant something else is irrelevant.

I think so

Hang on, didn't CM say she had a conversation with KS where she said what KS did on something would put her in deep doo-doo? To which KS said nothing in response?

If I had a conversation with a work colleague where they said I could be in deep doo-doo over something I'd sure remember that!!

@GreenFriedTomato ordinarily yes, but ordinarily you wouldn’t be mortally afraid of being accused of misgendering.

Incredibly tough job to try to make clear that you've not already made your mind up!

I need a new job. I wonder how long it takes to be one.

Judge questioning KS about procedure re datix reports
J - you looked up something a code of pract
KS - EHRC one or?
J - that's my question, there are lots
KS - EHRC 2010 before parliament in 2011, says CR use by gender identity
J - look beyond to the Act?
KS - confess not, read google excerpts

I understand now why MNHQ retired the 😂emoji because it was being used sarcastically.
So:😂

Did KS use Pink News as a reference for the law of the land?

From TT

We Resume

J - what page is this?
NC - page ?? line no?
J - no
NC - you have the note, have you read it
KS - yes
NC - Du was saying the nurse was so intimidateing he'd have to go on some kind of leave if overlapping shifts
KS - yes
NC - clear to keep DU happy SP needed to be removed
KS - no, some mitigation.
NC - no knowledge of shifts, no idea how easy to keep apart long term
KS - correct
NC - thats what you told SP, at the time reposnsible for SP suspension
KS - not what I said
NC - said SP was so terrifying needed to be out of dept
KS - absolutely did not
NC - that's why you brought back discussion of incidents with lottie myles at that time
KS - do not recall any discussion of that sort
NC - page 89 - you say you don' trecall any conv where you pushed back about SP return decision
KS - do not
NC - looking at requests by C, blue answers given by Rs on 17th dec, someone in respondant in Dec last in answer to which staff objected to CM decision to return - lists people - how did they get that answer?
KS - don't recall that discussion.

Just want to say,I’m not a mum, but since my older brother came out as a TiM (I’m in my early 20s) I’ve had to really self censor about this kind of thing as my mum is v much on the side of him instead of me. Been lurking on here for days and it’s been therapeutic seeing mums talk openly and honestly about this tribunal. Thank you🩷

KS - should treat as GI present
J - then however, did you read
KS - yes J - what did you think as whole
KS - exclusion needs to be a proportionate means, would need good reason to exclude DU from SS CR
Raises hand- Miss!Miss! Miss! I know one!

KS - yes but I could find no NHS fife policy on that
J - you said any grievance by SP could be raised in a proper manner, your answer was Beth had every right, any grievance could be raised in proper manner. So what do you think is a proper manner

Good question judge!

I think you've posted here by mistake.

From TT

P1 - one question, you don't recall
P1 - CM conv, can you tell us any conv you had with her then
KS - i remember her in dept, but don't recall any conv.
J - thanks, is there a procedure on how you do datix reports?
KS - yes
J - do you remember what it says?
KS - use for all sorts of incidents, give a timeline
KS - anonymous to start, fill in ID in boxes. Use for incidents of patient safety, and like this
J - it's policy that it's anonymous?
KS - yes - auto emails contain paragraph with anonymised details
J - ????
KS - a imagine a bit of both
J - you looked up something a code of prac
KS - EHRC one or?
J - that's my question, there are lots
KS - EHRC 2010 before parliament in 2011, says CR use by gender identity
J - look beyond to the Act?
KS - confess not, read google excerpts

Fifer : anither googler, bustet

J - did you take notes 29th dec
KS - bulleted email to beth after
KS - should treat as GI present
J - then however, did you read
KS - yes
J - what did you think as whole
KS - exclusion needs to be a proportionate means, would need good reason to exclude DU from SS CR
J - one qu is whether theres a distinction between publilc or work
KS - yes but I could find no NHS fife policy on that

Fifer : could ye no, aye?

J - you said any grievance by SP could be raised in a proper manner, your answer was Beth had every right, any grievance could be raised in proper manner. So what do you think is a proper manner

Fifer : that is the million poond question eh

KS - speak to line manager if not content, if not content with response, escalate to their lead, and other ways, up the chain.
J - who within Fife may have given approval to DU to use FCR?
KS - don't think it was ever discussed, don't know but don't think discussed outwith dep

From TT
J - you said any grievance by SP could be raised in a proper manner, your answer was Beth had every right, any grievance could be raised in proper manner. So what do you think is a proper manner
KS - speak to line manager if not content, if not content with response, escalate to their lead, and other ways, up the chain.
J - who within Fife may have given approval to DU to use FCR?
KS - don't think it was ever discussed, don't know but don't think discussed outwith dep

Fifer : naebody is willing to put their name doon for this raffle prize.