Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 14:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
Butchyrestingface · 23/07/2025 16:04

Quote from Twitter:

Kate Searle seems to be irredeemably perfidious

Me likey. Although I doubt anyone at NHS Fife would understand, since even the word 'verbatim' was confounding.

Rightsraptor · 23/07/2025 16:04

I suspect R (the witness HCA) didn't want to get in a fight between a doctor and a long-standing established nurse.

Chrysanthemum5 · 23/07/2025 16:05

I was in a cafe today and the table next to me was a group of elderly men and I realised they were talking about this case. Said NHS Fife were showing their complete lack of professional, and should be ashamed. And knew that Upton didn't have a GRC. Also said sandie (or the wee lassie as they called her) should never have had to go through this

NotAGentleReminder · 23/07/2025 16:06

Jitrenka · 23/07/2025 15:56

Finally caught up had an afternoon work thing.. did they say the Supreme Court ruling didn’t apply?

I'm guessing maybe that the SC ruling had not been made at the time of the events being discussed

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2025 16:06

NebulousDog · 23/07/2025 15:05

I’m really struggling to keep up, but presumably Peggie is sat in the courtroom with a friend whilst KS accuses her of being a racist hateful nurse?

Imagine finishing giving evidence and discovering that Sandie was cleared by the investigation on all counts due to lack of evidence.

To take your mind off things, you buy the local paper(s)…and spend some time on X.

Notice how they seem to have dropped the “homophobia” tittle tattle to focus on the “racism”.

Boiledbeetle · 23/07/2025 16:07

Charabanc · 23/07/2025 15:56

Hi @Boiledbeetle , pls could you do a picture of a sign that says "Do not engage with the interruptaron", so we can use it later to post "Don't make me tap the sign!" posts where necessary. Many thx.

.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39
anyolddinosaur · 23/07/2025 16:07

KS claims she didnt know Upton was a man but earlier said he was very open about being trans when he was discussing toilets with her. So she did know. Also we heard when anonymity was considered that staff and patients had recognised him as a man.

edit for typo

tribunalObserver · 23/07/2025 16:08

NotAGentleReminder · 23/07/2025 16:06

I'm guessing maybe that the SC ruling had not been made at the time of the events being discussed

That doesn't matter - the SC clarifies what the law has always been. I think the q here, if any, is whether sex also means biological sex in the Workplace Regulations (?1992?) That's a legal matter for submissions though. I guess the judge has to not have decided that, in advance.

chilling19 · 23/07/2025 16:08

MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 15:54

NC - about that, said I communicated was not willing work and KS would ...
JR - wasn't aware there was a transcript
J - we've talked about this
JR - not shared with both sides NC - will share JR - i need it now
NC - requested and paid for by us, no obligation

document everything, eh?😁

The cheek of JR

UpDo · 23/07/2025 16:08

mrshoho · 23/07/2025 16:04

How many 'In hindsight' is KS going to insert in her answers? It's pathetic and obviously only being said as she's been caught red handed!

See how they are turning on each other now. Let the hunger games begin.

Am I the only one who read fifers part aloud. Trying to sound Scots but coming out jordie!

KS has clearly been following what's gone on before her.

ThatCyanCat · 23/07/2025 16:09

chilling19 · 23/07/2025 16:08

The cheek of JR

Are there not visible stenographers in there?

Rightsraptor · 23/07/2025 16:09

Beautifully done, Naomi!

ickky · 23/07/2025 16:09

NC finished cross

ickky · 23/07/2025 16:10

Good question from chair person

What do you recall in the discussions with CM.

KS doesn't remember a discussion.

Cailleach1 · 23/07/2025 16:10

GCITC · 23/07/2025 14:55

I don't agree that the agreed facts state SP spoke about Isla Bryson. To me it reads that SP talked about the prison situation then after the comma the prison situation is explained as relating to Isla Bryson.

Aren’t JR/KS the right selective transphobic disbelievers. Why aren’t they calling Bryson Graham by his adopted moniker of ‘Isla Bryson’? Not having a GRC obviously shouldn’t matter to them in his case, as Upton didn’t have one either, and they don’t call ‘Beth’ Upton’ by his given name of Theodore Upton.

I know that the Bryson fellow was convicted for extremely serious crimes - rape. On another point, it does strike me that, in any normal situation, any man repeatedly going into a changing room whilst women are in undressing, and even taking his own clothes off, would normally, at least potentially, be accused of voyeurism and flashing/exposure. These are sex offences. I know they are lesser crimes than rape, but of course some women may have past trauma, and it would definitely creep me out and make me feel quite used and vulnerable. I’d be thinking ‘what is their motive for doing this’. I’d be ducking and diving to change when men aren’t there, or I’d be doing a flit as quick as possible to get out. I’d be extremely stressed if we were the only ones in there and he was between me and the door. That would be my personal reaction, of course.

It appears to be a right cognitive dissonance by JR and KS. But I suppose they can rest assured that they weren’t/aren’t the women put in that position.

Butchyrestingface · 23/07/2025 16:10

ThatCyanCat · 23/07/2025 16:09

Are there not visible stenographers in there?

They could be remote-ing in, which would make it easier to replace them if they lose the will to live have to go off to other booked assignments when this runs over longer than the Piper Alpha enquiry.

lcakethereforeIam · 23/07/2025 16:10

Perhaps also what Fife believed at the time of the incidents, even the EHRC guidance was fudged re. GRCs. Although that's thin gruel re. DU as he didn't have one.

MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 16:10

....and we're back in the room!

prh47bridge · 23/07/2025 16:10

anyolddinosaur · 23/07/2025 15:58

JR is disputing that the Supreme Court judgement applies here. The judge is not agreeing with her, he is saying that Fife dont accept it. He has to allow JR to make her case in submissions. He should then dismiss it but he has to allow the case to be made.

Agreed. If the judge decides it does not apply, SP can take it to the Employment Appeal Tribunal and, if necessary, all the way up to the SC, but I doubt it will go that far. The SC judgement seems abundantly clear to me. I can't see the tribunal accepting whatever arguments JR comes up with. Of course, if they don't, Fife could appeal and argue the tribunal was wrong to say that the SC judgement applies.

GreenFriedTomato · 23/07/2025 16:10

I don't recall.

No further questions..

Panel member asking about convos with lotte miles..Any conversations ?.

I don't recall any convos with her.

Does Fife have a memory clinic. Urgent referrals needed for all the Fife witnesses I'd say

Harassedevictee · 23/07/2025 16:12

Good questions judge

dunBle · 23/07/2025 16:12

Just out of interest, has anyone else had "I Don't Remember" by Peter Gabriel showing up as an earworm yet?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efEEe2oGCUc

MaMaMalenka · 23/07/2025 16:13

MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 14:48

NC - all SP has done is the equivilent of saying go away Pete

GO AWAY PETE t-shirt please, size M😃

me too!

ickky · 23/07/2025 16:13

HE IS NOT A TRANSEXUAL!

GreenFriedTomato · 23/07/2025 16:13

Transexual???

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread