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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 14:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
ItisntOver · 23/07/2025 15:41

MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 15:40

NC - sending email, passing message from JD etc
KS - i didn't
NC - did you not understand?
KS - didn't action
NC - talking to witness that upset you a flagrant breech?
KS - in hindsight yes

That should have landed with a Spielberg level thunderstorm impact.

Butchyrestingface · 23/07/2025 15:42

I never understood the TRAs reluctance to accept Isla Bryson as a woman anyway.

Either a man is a woman because he says he is and we must believe him OR he's not.

If said person commits sex crimes as a woman, how does that somehow 'UNwoman' him? Women assigned as female at birth commit all manner of crimes, including, very occasionally, sex crimes. We don't suddenly say they're NOT women because they do so.

To me TRAs invalidate their whole position by trying to disavow the status of individuals like Isla Bryson as legitimate women. There's nothing inherently inconsistent about a man genuinely believing himself to be a woman AND also being a sex offender. Therefore, by their lights, he SHOULD be in the female estate and they should be standing up for his rights to be housed there.

Yet I never hear any TRAs campaigning for this.

BezMills · 23/07/2025 15:42

From TT

NC - see all consultant email 29th dec, MC responds a few minutes later, to all ED consultants you say
NC - sketch of incident, DU reaction, you all support him and condemn SP. We see MC response 30th dec, thanks you for proactive and decisive and offering support on behalf of all.
NC continues
I suggest you have put on an exemplary display of piety and virtue and MC trying to associate scrambling, positively ingratiating. Agree?
KS - disagree

NC - 756 surinder panthar (?) also approves sentiment
KS - he agrees yes
NC - a successful move for you in terms of status in dept
KS - disagree
NC - apart from Melvin email that's it, aware of any others?
KS - no
NC - sent to 19 seniors, all support and condemnation of sandie, no one else responds?
KS - i didn't receive any other responses N
C - usual rules don't apply to DU do they
KS - i don't agree

Things seem to be getting to the end here. The Ring is ready to act. Six beads of green, two of violet. The code is unknown, perhaps it's beyond human comprehension entirely. Whatever ungodly computational matrix it is behoven to, we may never know, its machinations forever an unanswered mystery.

Or it might just be a Fitbit.

NC - ??? - email 3rd jan to DU just an update JD now involved and wanted me to pass on support. WHoly inappropriate when doing ix?
KS - in hindsight, yes

NC - 258 - email from melvin c of 7th jan, cc'd to same group, thanks for making aware kate, now being investigated. Looks like he's trying to shut down conv.
KS - don't know
NC - its flat
KS - could infer
NC - not stated is it
KS - no
NC - you would have mentioned if you'd been told to shut it down - whole truth?
KS - I would have
NC - you aren't subject ot any disciplinary proceedings because of that email?
KS - no

The Ring disagrees.

NC - AG 18th ap to you - meeting invite saying speaking to you first before DU. Woudn't be appropriate for you to be there when DU interviewed
KS - if you say

Fifer : the backchat has been pit at a peep noo. It's like when ye dae yer first PT in the Airmy. The PTI sets aff at a decent pace. Ye think ye can keep up. And ye can, for aboot 10 minutes ye think 'airmy, piece o doddle, completed it mate'. But he keeps gaun. An gaun. An gaun. Yer lungs are burnin, and ye realise : he can dae this aw day. This is his job. Yer in his hoose noo. There's nae end tae it. That's whit Dr Searle feels like. Wid be ma guess, ken.

NC - mitigate by speaking to you first
KS - that's what AG says.
NC - it's what you want and AG indulges
JR - not what it says, no rules
NC - it's a pattern for DU (for normal process not to be followed - missed exact wording)
NC - this is your invitation to meeting, avoid talking to anyone else, other than rep, take it seriously?
KS - yes
NC - did you then confess to AG you left confidentiatlity in ruins

Fifer : eh ah think this is ane o thae questions ye widnae like tae receive.

NC - sending email, passing message from JD etc
KS - i didn't

NC - did you not understand?
KS - didn't action
NC - talking to witness that upset you a flagrant breech?
KS - in hindsight yes

Fifer : aye buck'n hindsight is 20/20 eh. Nae scores here tho. At least no fur the Doctor.
I'm here aw week, tip the waitress, try the smokie.

NC - Can you tell us about that chat with HR?
KS - no its AG ref'ing to DU
NC - saying complainant should speak to you first?
KS - I am her supervisor, close on this incident, my part as a witness is only I'm who she reported to. I was offering well being support to beth.
NC - metadata of doc formal complaint made on 31st dec

Fifer : if there's a word that wid gie ye the cauld fear, it's got tae be 'METADATA'. Sake min, I'm gettin feart masel.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/07/2025 15:43

" Exemplary display of piety and virtue..." Fantastic!

Boiledbeetle · 23/07/2025 15:44
shovel digging GIF by Hunter Gatherer

.

GreenFriedTomato · 23/07/2025 15:44

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/07/2025 15:43

" Exemplary display of piety and virtue..." Fantastic!

I thought I heard 'performance' not display

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/07/2025 15:44

"Positively ingratiating"

Extravirginolive · 23/07/2025 15:45

MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 15:20

KS admitted that she added the reference to 'rapist' in prison
KS - what's offensive is the inference, which is why it was important to mention in a hate incident
NC - it's important on datix to be specific and accurate, report what was said and done, not interpretation, agree

She admitted it to JR yesterday too.

She's exaggerated this in the Datix.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39
ickky · 23/07/2025 15:45

So KS and ED both knew of a possible patient safety issue and neither reported it at the time!

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/07/2025 15:45

GreenFriedTomato · 23/07/2025 15:44

I thought I heard 'performance' not display

I'm just going by Tribunal Tweets, I'm not watching.

Shortpoet · 23/07/2025 15:45

I don’t know why we use term handmaidens to describe female TRA supporters. KS is a full on Aunt Lydia

JamieCannister · 23/07/2025 15:45

Butchyrestingface · 23/07/2025 15:42

I never understood the TRAs reluctance to accept Isla Bryson as a woman anyway.

Either a man is a woman because he says he is and we must believe him OR he's not.

If said person commits sex crimes as a woman, how does that somehow 'UNwoman' him? Women assigned as female at birth commit all manner of crimes, including, very occasionally, sex crimes. We don't suddenly say they're NOT women because they do so.

To me TRAs invalidate their whole position by trying to disavow the status of individuals like Isla Bryson as legitimate women. There's nothing inherently inconsistent about a man genuinely believing himself to be a woman AND also being a sex offender. Therefore, by their lights, he SHOULD be in the female estate and they should be standing up for his rights to be housed there.

Yet I never hear any TRAs campaigning for this.

Seriously, I have spent 5 years pondering, and the best I can come up with is this...

a trans'woman' is a man who claims to be a woman (but not including those men claiming to be women who are guilty of doing very bad things that - according to trans people and TRAs - make trans people look bad).

MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 15:46

NC moving on to other alleged incidents..

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 23/07/2025 15:46

wantmorenow · 23/07/2025 15:28

Glad you have picked this up too - an apparently shocking statement from the judge.

Would make it easy grounds to go to the court of appeal if appealing against the judge on a legal matter like this.

chilling19 · 23/07/2025 15:46

So KS did you report those safety concerns?

BezMills · 23/07/2025 15:46

From TT

NC - metadata of doc formal complaint made on 31st dec
NC - email of 12th, you says ED taken lead on ix, happy to forward your statement etc. looks like you knew doc called formal complaint created 31 jan
KS - seems so
NC - existed didn't have e-copy, had you seen it?
KS - no
NC - 277 - not cc'd on this, seen b4?
KS - no
NC - HR people exchange , and ED at at least one point, JHerkiss (?) says to update on advice given to ED, allegation nurse sought out dr, compared to sex offender, left cubicle, seems JH knew about resus incident.
KS - yes
NC - where did she get that? Infer from ED and ED
NC - from you?

Fifer : ah'm lost here. But there's that queer like smell again. Fresh det cord. Ah hink there's a kaboom roon the corner ken.

KS - yes
NC - ever spoken to JH?
KS _ no
NC - gets a detail wrong, given ED likely told and she got it from you>
KS - ???
NC - your email 30th dec, mention of log of less severe incidents, can see one is leaving patient cubicle
KS - yes

GreenFriedTomato · 23/07/2025 15:47

Oh wow. She's calling Lottie Miles a liar now

nauticant · 23/07/2025 15:47

KS now saying LM's evidence untrue.

That's a bold move.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 15:47

NC - order of priority is surprising, more concerned about SP action to DU rather than abandoning patient care?
KS - in hindsight we didn't necessarily see they were patient safety issues,

Boiledbeetle · 23/07/2025 15:47

I don't recall makes another appearance

NebulousSupportPostcard · 23/07/2025 15:48

Lottie Myles testimony disputed!

This is more scary than Pete!

Phew Liar Liar downgraded to I don't Recall!

Jerabilis · 23/07/2025 15:48

That is masterful from NC there. Bringing up what Lottie Myles had said and KS then denying that Lottie had said that to her!

murasaki · 23/07/2025 15:48

Given KS has admitted lying in a datix, she's on thin ice accusing LM of lying.

nauticant · 23/07/2025 15:48

KS is now calling incidents she acknowledged to be potentially career-ending for SP as "small incidents".

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 23/07/2025 15:48

Boiledbeetle · 23/07/2025 15:47

I don't recall makes another appearance

Times 100

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