NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #38

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37

How can they get away with this?! It's worse than anything I've seen from them, ever. The bias is extraordinary.

@BezMills is it weird I’m like oh that’s interesting about Bez :-(

Not suggesting that the mailbox is restored to that time but a back up copy will be available through the exchange back end. The IT lad could put his hands on it in a minute.

They could also identify if it’s in their mailboxes - so to confirm whether they lied or not.

On the subject of email recovery and document discovery- I think there’s a “reasonable” test for the effects a party has to make. In the context of an employment tribunal that is about money damages, it’s not reasonable to require a party to spend millions to recover emails, if for some reason that is what it would take.

When I say this is about money, I mean that in an “officially” way. The tribunal is primarily about whether SP deserves money for having been badly treated. A in a commercial case claiming 500 million in damages the court is going to require much more in depth searching than “just” an employment tribunal.

Nor am I saying that NHSFife are rightly or wrongly claiming that it will cost millions to search for and find these emails correctly. Just that there are reasonable limits.

ba's on the slates! That's a new one to me! Definitely a possible outcome when playing booncie or fitba back in the day.

The panicked " you can't prove it" from KS yesterday reminded me of the "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything" Bart Simspon t-shirt I had when I was 12.

Ah it's not bad, as online insults go !

for non Gaelic speakers: it means 'Aren't you an eejit!'.
Note that 'oinseach' is a female eejit, there's a different word for a male eejit, i.e. 'amadán'
There's no sign of anything happening on TT, so we're allowed a bit of irrelevant chat without irritating anyone, I hope?
For the record: I am agnostic on celery.

Same with SD cards - I've had images on a camera SD recovered!

Just ya know to make sure he is engaging with his true womanly self 😑

That's the only good thing. (Fingers crossed that) the judgment will be so damning that the headlines from more accurate sources, exposing the truth, will be inescapable - and the BBC will have egg on their face and inadvertently exposed their own bias to the thinking reader.

@Needspaceforlego yes, on an SD card, let's guess using a FAT32 file system, the sectors containing file data are not scrubbed, only the records in the File Allocation Table. Unless those sectors are written over, the files are still there, just no longer linked from the File Allocation Table, and can be reconstituted by clever software. Which can be super handy if you're trying to get your photies off a corrupt device.

"A big boy did it and ran away"?

Still nothing from TT about start time, it may well be 11.30 in which case a quick dash to my not-very-nearby-shops might be possible..
Current earworm - The Clash, Should I stay or should I go?😃

I'll bow to your knowledge.
I accidentally wiped an SD card, and friend of a friend in the police recovered it.

The FOI is a great idea! Thank you.

(And sorry - I realise I'm giving everyone who isn't 9 pages behind, like me, a sense of thread déjà vu, so won't interject on BBC comments any more... I'm just thrilled to be far enough ahead to be able to actually, kind of, participate!)

Possibly if it weren’t for the fact that they HAVE found it and have submitted it in the 2nd iteration of disclosure.

NC is presenting the very serious detriment to SP of 6 senior managers colluding to discuss the details of a live I/x to serve DUs interests.

They then also invited DU to join the group.

They then also collided to thwart the course of justice by not including it with the chain as part of 1rst disclosure.

I wonder if this is going to be one of the things JR will be putting work in to in her re-examination. JR will be very keen to repair this but doing so could go badly wrong and in any case will end up drawing even more attention to something JR would like to be made less visible.

Am I the only one wondering what JR Jack in the box is?

They don’t use reporters’ names on stories that could be construed as ‘anti-trans’ because they are scared of tras. They do, however, use them on stories that could be construed as ‘pro-trans’ - nothing to fear there. Examples would be outing but they are there. And they are legally obliged to report both sides of any court / tribunal proceedings, as are other media outlets. They can probably just about gloss over their appalling imbalance so far, as well as their utter failure to grasp the news line (since when was ‘considered’ ever a good headline word?) by claiming they will be balanced across the whole proceeding. But if, for example, they failed to report the verdict or called it into question, they could be legally challenged.

A couple of years ago my the hard drive on my computer got fried. Took it to the local fix-it place and the guy there did forensic level work and recovered absolutely everything. It's amazing what can be done.

Stopping JR leaping to her feet and interrupting every five minutes to argue NC isn’t being very kind?

This is more what I'm getting at with the 'restore' difficulties angle. My place finangled it so that to recover a mailbox/restore a backup meant that you had to instantiate an entire new system identical to the production size system (which is huge, 100,000 employees, with unlimited mailbox size), then you could restore the entire system and pick out what you needed. Or overwrite the production system with the old backup (which of course would not be viewed as reasonable) Because the configuration had been long standing and not just switched on a week before a discovery request, it then goes into the 'is it reasonable to expect them to bear this type of cost?' and sometimes a judge will go, nope, especially if it is a fishing expedition.

As a complete amateur, given that we know date/time/recipients, it seems as though it wouldn't be that difficult for IT dept to find the original email and verify where it exists in any chain, but would NHS Fife be asked to provide this evidence now, given that this is an employment tribunal, not a criminal matter?

They are just making themselves look ridiculous. There is so much good, proper journalism on this topic (including by outlets such as the Courier and the Scottish Herald in Scotland) that people can turn to instead. But yes it is an issue if people only get their news from BBC because they will not be getting an accurate reflection of proceedings

I was referring to the stream of interuptions from Jane Russell earlier in proceedings, which contributed to the need for adjournment.

I wonder whether DU is quietly enjoying the spectacle of his handmaidens, some of them very senior, squirming and tying themselves in knots even under oath to continue fawning over him, and contemplating the timescale of his announcement that he's realised he was never a woman after all, it was someone else's fault that he got into the situation of thinking he was, and is detransitioning, leaving them all dangling there.

I have, of course, no evidence that this might be the case, but it's more plausible than the possibility that he's currently reading these threads and regretting what he's done.