NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #38

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37

It also, of course, either way almost wholly undermines the credibility of KS

... and everyone else on the chain who withheld it from their submissions?

Just remembered that episode of The IT Crowd where Roy gets stuck in a disabled loo and pretends to be 'leg disabled'. The escalating lies, the reversion to childishness to avoid being caught out. It haunts me. I cringe. And that's just comedy pretend. I reckon you have to be missing a chip to beg victim status deceptively.

I would pay good money for a description of NC’s body language upon hearing “ you can’t prove it” from KS.

Right, dinner solved for Thursday evening.
Head of Catering can have the evening off!

As things haven't started up yet... I am curious about what Vic Valentine's involvement was. What did any of this have to do with the Equality Network or Scottish Trans Alliance?

I assume the need to virtue signal and cow any dissent stopped Dr S from behaving discreetly. Sound the klaxons! I am an ally, one of the virtuous and will hunt down any who disagree (or misbehave by leaving changing rooms - how dare they)!

I'm sure many have mentioned this, but what is wild to me is that the consultants themselves were responsible for looking deciding what to submit.

I was involved in an NHS tribunal that required a subject access request to locate files for discovery. For this, the claimant had to provide the keywords needed and the people to pull from during a particular time period.

For example, the order was "find all emails sent in the last 6 months from Honoria Glossop, Gussie Fink-Nottle, and Roderick Spode that include the phrases 'Bertie Wooster' or 'Bertie' or 'Chief Tippling Officer.'" It took the Trust about 6 months to get IT to pull the files then get them reviewed by some data/governance person who blacked out all the lines not relevant or potentially violating GDPR, and then those 500 partly blacked-out pages were delivered as part of the bundle.

I can't imagine why they thought the doctors themselves here were the right people to sort through their own emails (that clearly made them look like class a arseholes) to decide what to submit. I get if it's an employer with 3 employees and no IT team, but this is ridiculous.

That is fucking enraging. I'm so sorry your colleague had to deal with that.

And this is what makes me so angry about DrU and all his enablers. There was absolutely fuck all wrong with him. He was throwing a strop like a three year old because as a man he should not have been using the women's changing room. Yet due to growing his hair long and putting on a nice pair of tights and saying the magic special words "I'm a woman actually" he was pandered to and fawned over like the second coming.

All of these women who did this and enabled him should be ashamed. What a joke.

It was a good few threads back now that I saw a comment from a doctor (or a consultant I think) who listed quite matter of factly all the utterly awful things that she had had to deal with in her working life (truly traumatic events, death etc) and had just been expected to suck it up, as that's the job. Any crying from her would have been seen as a weakness. Yet this entitled Dr gets to wail that a nurse isn't undressing in front of him and has the AUDACITY to ask him to leave the changing room and it's like he's some poor soul in need of a warm blanket round him.

I'm not in the medical setting at all, but I have a lot of friends who are, and as well as denying the reality of biological sex, this pandering to a non-event would tip me over the edge if I was. How dare he. How dare all of those women pander to him. Proves that society knows exactly who the men are and exactly who the women are when it really matters.

I’m curious about what the tribunal thinks in all this, ie how balanced/unbiased legal professionals are processing the witness evidence.

For example on the surface, I think KS was coached on what to say. I’m just wondering what impact her verbal evidence had, given the written evidence seemed damming about her poor actions.

Just wanting to check in for KSD2 - what treats are we going to get today?

And to add: Celeriac mash is delicious with anything lamb-y. Needs gravy, and greens. I use half potatoes half celeriac if there are kids / fussy palates involved.

Does anyone have a good (as in tasty) courgette-in-a-cake recipe? I also have a marrow large courgette from a friend’s garden that I need to use up.

For that matter, didn’t SP’s previous bad experience come at the hands of a doctor. If I were her, I’d be rather cynical about their code of conduct

There does indeed appear to have been a lot of “behold my virtue”

this is how all government department deal with SARs, rightly or wrongly

JR may be a superstar barrister’s barrister, but not much of what she does seems very clever to this watching layperson. In fact her hectoring, accusatory tone and frequent seemingly inadvertent exposure of the weaknesses of her client’s case look rather amateurish. But what do I know.

Disclaimer: I’m not actually watching watching, just “watching” via TT, MN and other channels.

Flora's famous courgette cake by Nigella is delicious

Who better than a group of 100% trustworthy doctors (who are overseen by the GMC, you know) to mark their own homework?

Or "we didn't see anything, and Captain Blackadder did not shoot this delicious plump- breasted pigeon"

I only alighted on these threads a week ago and don't have the detailed background knowledge which many others do. But I still can't get my head round why there was so much investment in DU. I don't know enough about junior doctor rotations. Was he bound to spend whole career in Fife/that A&E dept? Not that that would alter fundamental issues at stake here. Be kind vs Be horrid (to SP).

@Needspaceforlego The first email must have something in it the 6 of them colluded in. Something that is really really damaging to them all.
They've had two chances to cough it up. They've clearly discussed it with the comment that KS made.

Apologies if this has been answered- I'm still catching up with last night's posts.

So is the first email of this chain still missing then?

I remember NC saying that one of Searle's emails looked like it was the start but it didn't make sense that the subject title has Re; in it.
Another part of the chain (initially hidden by all 6 ?) had the evidence of colluding/foot in mouth etc?

So I'm still not following. Is the issue that they intentionally cut off the foot in mouth email - because as part of the chain they would have deliberately needed to cut it off as it would naturally have been included in the rest of the chain.
Is it that the initial email is still missing? Or is it both?

I am still rather confused as to exactly what the issues are with this email business.

. @kittykarate JR tried to claim Naomi was on a "fishing expedition" to avoid further disclosure. The judge wouldnt have it in February and he is not going to think he was wrong now.

I once tried using slices of celeriac instead of pasta in a lasagne when a family member was low-carbing. It was more convincing and less mushy than trying to make spaghetti from courgettes or rice from cauliflower.

(I suspect my intelligent, science-trained, non-diabetic sibling would prefer not to be reminded of the time she looked terrified when presented with a plate that had boiled carrots on it because of the sugar in them. And is it right that posting a bit of irrelevance among the on-topic material trips up the bots that are trying to scrape the thread?)

Courgette recipe contribution here! 5oclockapron on insta (chef name Clare Thompson) did a cluster of courgette recipes last summer.
also Ed Smith has a banger of a slow cooked courgette, white beans, mint, goats cheese summer dish that is light and brothy and makes me happy!

I actually think in the legal profession, a lot of success comes down to being convincing/manipulating perception/having a face that fits. Getting the tribunal to buy into you and what you have to say sort of thing. I’m not saying she’s doing a good job, just that it‘s not about being clever or smart; it’s about timing, being dynamic, controlling the overall narrative etc

Tapadh leat,
Duolingo the hasn't taught me the words for eejit!

Deleted data can be recovered regardless of the file system used. For a flash drive, USB stick or SSD, deleted data sticks around longer than with magnetic hard drives, so can be recovered with the right equipment.