NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

Excellent spot! I'll bet NC spotted it too...

Policy.

What is this thing called policy? I thought they didn't exist at NHS Fife.

Oh so they have a hate policy which tells you what exactly? That its 'hate' to not use wrong sex pronouns and talk about chromosones. Reminder: this is a hospital.

But they don't have a policy on trans stuff.

And Kate Searle genuinely thinks that pointing out that a transwomen is male is a Police Reportable incident???!!

Despite this being post Forstater.

The incidents seem to centre on the changing room - and every time Peggie tries to avoid there's note taking. At this point, why might Peggie not want to talk to a doctor who has somehow lost his patient (which the nurse is dealing with)

Another staff member not wishing to get involved with something defending Dr Upton, could also be a shit excuse for someone who can see Dr Upton is a walking disaster area.

The idea that NHS Staff must report all hate incidents when we have just heard about how all these other incidents haven't been reported is a bit laughable too.

Notably if she is saying 'report as hate incident' she's also made up her mind that it was a hate incident, even though she wasn't actually present for the incident and can't make that judgment call.

NC is going to take her to pieces...

Good link -

news.stv.tv/scotland/what-are-non-crime-hate-incidents-and-will-police-scotland-tell-your-employer-you-have-one

Datix is just an incident reporting system, it's designed to be filled in quickly (although with no names - no blame culture, allegedly). Any investigation happens later (if at all).

🍿

Yes JR was wrong there in her questioning. IIRC the words were 'its like that situation in the prison' not 'it's like that person in the prison'.

Yes please

A Rhianna was mentioned, possibly an HCA. In the case of the Missing Patient, Dr U sent Rhianna to look for Sandie and she was said to have given testimony to Fife that supported Sandie's version of events.

Just before NC gets to question KS, I just want to say a word in KS' defence (yes really!!).

the evidence so far suggests she was faced with a 6ft rugby playing male colleague crying ('sobbing' uncontrollably, so badly she had to offer to help him to his car for his safety) ... If she's not used to this kind of behaviour from other doctors at work / men in her life (and I hope she isn't) then it's maybe a bit understandable she believed something major must have happened to him - ie the nurse must have done something dreadful (not far off attempted murder..!!)

The rest of her behaviour isn't excusable. But it may have been the 1st time she was faced with such a reaction from someone who didn't like someone else far smaller/ female challenging him.. In that circumstance, a busy consultant not recognising what some might consider manipulative behaviour is not surprising?

JR wouldn't be so tolerant if you were a witness. It would be used as evidence of your subconcious bigotry and trans obsession!

I thought it was ED who took Upton to his car? Not KS, anyway.

Agree. That ship sailed long ago. <On a sea of mayonnaise with celery sticks for oars and the occupants speaking Japanese, Italian and pidgin Scottish>

Maybe KC means she spoke to this person after it was decided to take to tribunal and had appeared in the press. I missed that part so I can't recall if she said when she spoke to this potential witness

Oh, I've said 'i can't recall'. It's contagious!

Edit KS, not KC

This is classed as non-conviction information. The information can only be included in a DBS check if it is deemed relevant to the role and the disclosure has been approved by a chief officer. Even then, an employer cannot refuse to employ you just because of the existence of such information. They can only do so if it is relevant to the role. The fact the police deem it relevant is not conclusive evidence that it is. Disclosure of non-conviction information is exceedingly rare.

There has been a lot of vitriol online against NHSF's witnesses. I can imagine that person wouldn't want to be on the end of that with added racism.

But that concern wouldn't have been relevant if they'd given evidence to the internal investigation - which cleared SP of all the allegations. So that person can't have been that helpful to NHSF's case.

Speculating here person of mixed race, thinking fuck off you are not using me as the token black to cover your sorry arses.

You've reminded me that this goes to the very heart of the institutional capture. The rotten centre. The guidance slavishly followed by so many senior staff members, that anyone speaking about the matter at all must be silenced. Thought in itself is a crime. All must accept the new dogma, and if they don't they are out. Punished first, then erased. Written out of existence.

it was EP elsbeth Pitt.

I think we need to remember that KS does not have a good track record of reporting accurately what other staff have said. Sorry I have forgotten her name - Lauren? - was named in an email by KS who reported that L had "condemned" SP. That was not L's recollection of the discussion and she disagreed with KS' statement about this. KS hears what she wants to hear and seems to struggle to differentiate this and facts. So any quotes from other staff she mentions - make sure to remember her tendency towards hearsay.

I can't help myself but every time I hear them say she, her, woman etc, the photo of him sat in his rugby kit and sporting a beard pops into my head. Apart from a shave and a bit of lippy, he hasn't changed that much in my eyes.

It was Esther Pitt who was confronted by sobbing. Kate picked up the emails after Christmas including a much less dramatic vnote from Esther just asking for a 'catch-up".

Kate had known from the outset about the CR issues so it wasn't completely unknown to her that something might happen.

Or worried about "wrong speak" within NHS Fife given the misgendering accusations against SP. Seems it was impossible not to "enthusiastically embrace" DU's identity and view of reality.

It seems pretty petulant for JR to keep harping on about all these unattributed, vaguely worded "accusations" that nobody wants to put their name to and only seem to have been mentioned at all after the cr incident mostly as gossip and hearsay.

It has all of the legal security of a witch trial by throwing in spurious accusations - she soured the milk, stopped the chickens laying, gave children a fever and made drunken Pete (not a plumber) fall out of his fishing boat. Wee Sandie is a hexi and consorts with the devil and the trolls!

She had already set the scene for this by agreeing that the female changing room was the right place for him to be, without concern for anyone else

Hadn't realised it was EP!

In the past when we have been scolded for digressive conversation it has seemed to be because AI was trying to collect conversation templates. At the moment, anyone trying to copy and past onto another site, the better to denounce evil terfs, might find the discussion of celery a bit wearisome.