NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

KS - discussed police report as that's in policy. Beth said would think. Looked at shift patterns and if she felt safe. Ensured had all support needed
JR - which events?
KS - Xmas eve. She mentioned 2 others with Sandie, miss Peggie, where DU felt interactions were about trans

R - describe incidents
KS - entered while SP doing obs, DU asked if wanted to do them, SP said do them yourself and left
JR - what did you make of that interaction
KS - normally resus nurse would do full obs before or during Dr comes. Odd unless other pressing things

It is a possibility that junior doctors are a bit 'the squeezed middle' re changing facilities, but that doesn't mean they can barge into the incorrect one for their sex and create havoc.

Nope it said grc makes a male female otherwise still male, same as they said in sc submission.
This was August-December 2023 the haldane ruling was 2022 and EHRC agreed with it

Knew it

From TT

J- Big Sond : morning
KS, chose oath. KS sworn in.
J - I'm writing, please go slowly , JR
JR - full name pls
KS - Kate ELizabeth Searle
JR how long
KS - 11 years
JR - title
KS - consultant in emergency
JR - invoves?
KS - supervision and oversight.
JR - first met DU
KS - aug 2023
JR - role with DU?
KS - ??+clinical supervision
JR - what does that involve
KS - getting to know their experience and main point of contact and support in career while in dept. Also wellbeing support if require
JR - describe relationship with SP
KS - I'm a consultant in dept,
KS - large ept have know since started
JR - id you know of her GC views?
KS - no
JR - do you knoww hat it means?
KS - yes I think so
JR - aware of any of SP's views?
KS - no
JR - describe dr induction
KS - practical induction, fire safety etc day 1 then given geog of dept, areas
KS - go through areas and topics, there are projects we do, things they can get involved in, who to support and who supervisors are.
JR - when id you become DU supervisor
KS - aug 2023
JR - when was induction?
KS - weds and thurs of first week
JR - when aware of DU trans status?

Fifer : if she says onyhing except 'the first ah laid eyes on um' I'm crying bullshit

KS - when I met her, in interview for job was very open about it
JR - did she tell you?
KS - yes
JR - how long did you beloeve out as TW?
KS believe a year
JR - first meeting with DU?
KS - aug 23
JR - purpose of meeting?
KS - intro to me, what she wanted to get out of role, ans questions, direct to support available
JR - turns to bundle - What is this a pic of?
KS - F
CR in emergency dept
JR - what discussion with DU about F CR use?
KS - checked knew where was, happy to use it, had used in previous jobs, extent of conv.
JR - who suggested DU use F CR?
KS - Beth use in previous job, happy and comfortable, so I made no other suggestion
JR - recall what you said?
KS - not an in depth conv, asked if happy using, she said yes. I had nothing to add.
JR - what prep for meeting?
KS - l looked at info summary of previous jobs
KS - foundation jobs, also looked up EHRC statutory act, as DU ID as F she has every right to use F CR

Fifer : Does she, aye?

JR - anything else?
KS - looked for Fife policy, wasn't one.
JR - in bundle, later in Dec, your email to IB, you say first transgender dr, v little info available, asking for info, what were you looking for?
KS - hoping trust policy supporting TG staff in workplace.
JR - her reply, describe reponse.
KS - no trust policy for staff, or patients either I think, hope to have one.
JR - why send that email 8th Dec?
KS - don't recall
JR - Xmas 2023..
JR - same bundle. Email from EP to you and ED, informs you DU had a v upsetting interaction with staff, is v distressed. She reassured Beth was appropriate to let senior colleague know in future. YOu r reaction?
KS - concerned for Beth.
JR - what did you do?
KS - not read in isolation, Xmas day, others also came through.# JR - your dates of hols then?
KS - can't recall exactly, around 29th back. (missed)
JR - email dated 3:17 am Xmas day, difficult incident mentioned spoken to Elspeth, also a summary.
JR - it says SP said DU shouldn't be in changing and lots felt that way. reaction
KS - concerned, and no policies
JR - ???
KS - again concerned
JR - qu of chromasomes
KS - imagine invasive question, not relevant for colleague to ask
JR - why upsetting for Beth
KS - beth ID as F and Chrom don't matter to her
JR - continues saying intimidated, and mentions isla bryson
KS - inappropriate
JR - who is Isla bryson
KS - rapist in prison
JR - lots of other feel this way - aware any concerns?
KS - no
JR - when did you respond to email?
KS - 29th Dec
JR - 11:17 why did you send this to Beth?
KS - imp to acknowledge extremely distresssing event, to make contact and arrange to discuss furhter.
JR - I'll let other consultants know, why
KS - so DU could leave if needed
JR - did she?
KS - don't believe so
JR - when did you see DU?
KS - met around 5pm that day
JR - where
KS - consultant office
JR - just you?
KS - just me and Beth
JR - what happened?
KS - Beth went through all events, very distressed

J - (Big Sond) need to catch up
Fifer : you an me baith, neebs

KS - looked at hate incident policy, going through it realised incident required datix, completed together
KS - discussed police report as that's in policy. Beth said would think. Looked at shift patterns and if she felt safe. Ensured had all support needed
JR - which events?
KS - Xmas eve. She mentioned 2 others with Sandie, miss Peggie, where DU felt interactions were about trans
JR - describe incidents
KS - entered while SP doing obs, DU asked if wanted to do them, SP said do them yourself and left
JR - what did you make of that interaction
KS - normally resus nurse would do full obs before or during Dr comes. Odd unless other pressing things
JR - obs are observatins? KS - yes ecg, blood pressure etc and documenting on chart.
JR - 2nd incident?
KS - Beth called patient, didn't respond to call, patient presented with MH crisis I think, concerned. Peggie was triage nurse, asked if concern over leaving
KS - when DU found SP, SP spoke through another staff member, wouldn't speak directly
JR - what dd you make of that
KS - concerned, first I'd heard that, concerned for patient safety if nurse can't talk to Dr, we need to communicate well for safety
JR - subsequent conv with other

Caught up!

JR - 2nd incident?
KS - Beth called patient, didn't respond to call, patient presented with MH crisis I think, concerned. Peggie was triage nurse, asked if concern over leaving

😱😱 Here we go, racist again.

A much more hesitant witness. Long pauses before she speaks and she is choosing her words very carefully.

She said Ms Peggie telling Dr Upton that they were not a woman was likely harassment incident under NHS Fife's hate policy.

WORIADS according to the High Court. Is this the mysterious transphobia of which we have heard tell?

This is it, isn't it? Telling the truth is illegal. Chilling.

KS is suggesting that at least one witness who could speak up for DU won't because of the publicity surrounding the case, and part of the reason for their worry is that they're mixed-race. That's interesting.

ok by request -from herald
12:50pm
Dr Searle is asked if she has spoken to the other medical professional from the second incident.
She says they were concerned about getting involved in this because they are mixed race and worried about getting invovled for their own safety.
12:49pm
Dr Searle says it would make her concerned about patient safety if a nurse would not speak to a doctor.

12:49pm
Second incident was that Dr Upton went to call a patient from the waiting room, but the patient wasn't there. They had mental health issues and Dr Upton was concerned. When Dr Upton wen to find Ms Peggie, who had triaged the patient, to see if they were worried about the patient disappearing, Ms Peggie would only speak to Dr Upton through another person.
12:47pm
Dr Searle says during the discussion they discussed the Christmas Eve incident and two other incidents.
They included one when Ms Peggie was taking "obs" of a patient in the resuscitation room, but then left when Dr Upton walked in. She says Dr Upton asked Ms Peggie if she was going to complete the observations, but Ms Peggie said do it yourself.
Obs - putting an ECG on, taking blood pressure and adding them to a chart

It depends on the context. Doing it gratuitously or for the purpose of causing offence is harrasment. Doing in a changing room in which DU should not have been present, isn’t.

Which makes a nice change.

Patient safety comes up:

KS - when DU found SP, SP spoke through another staff member, wouldn't speak directly
JR - what dd you make of that
KS - concerned, first I'd heard that, concerned for patient safety if nurse can't talk to Dr, we need to communicate well for safety

from herald
12:51pm
Asked what she thinks she meant, Dr Searle says it is about press attention, and that staff involved in the case have felt under scrutiny and that their views will be widely publicised.

Ha, JR just mixed up Isla Bryson and Isla Bumba!

I've got 'Emotional support iguana' on my bingo card. No way I'm winning today.

Then the witness misread the guidance?

Very bad mis naming by JR there, called isla Bumba a different name

There isn't, that's been established.

KS has tied herself in knots there.

Claimed that Upton told her the patient safety concerns in December but for the second incident (patient leaving A&E) when KS spoke to the other clinician that clinician said she didn't want to get involved as she was mixed race! Implication that didn't want to get involved because of the court case - which obviously didn't exist in December 2023!!!

Information which almost certainly cannot be verified if the alleged staff member isn’t prepared to speak. How convenient.

Can you imagine if that had been NC!!!

😱

I am picturing NC cracking her knuckles at the prospect of x-exam on this.