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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

1000 replies

nauticant · 21/07/2025 14:55

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

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31
Harassedevictee · 21/07/2025 16:43

KnottyAuty · 21/07/2025 16:21

Well if she has, JR needs to act impartially.
She has been appointed to defend GC views and networks by the Environment Agency so will be switching sides later this year/next summer.
So let's see how she goes then?
https://x.com/AnnMSinnott/status/1943051183729361215

That is so interesting. It will be worth watching to see how JR works when she is arguing the opposite position.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:44

crabbyoldbat · 21/07/2025 15:37

It bugs me that NC didn't point out that SP was objecting to a man in the CR, not a transwoman

Is it perhaps that old adage — don’t ask a question you don’t already know the answer too. I suspect NC has not researched CM rugby team sufficiently and so left it there. Or in the fast pace of it all her brain might have heard Transwoman rather than transplayer

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 21/07/2025 16:45

Tweakie123 · 21/07/2025 16:29

Yes possibly! I have complained about the bbc headline re Nurse confronts trans doctor in an 'unacceptable manner', highlighting that the article omits the admission by NHS Fife that there was 'no acceptable way' for Sandy to raise concerns. They've basically brushed off my complaint. I will be complaining further to the ECU.

I have had a reply to my own complaint about the headline and found it a 'none-response'.

They sent a general reply that did not address my objections. (I pointed out how and why the headline did not represent the day's events or even the article that it headed. I also pointed out how some of the word choices had effects that were far from neutral.)

It is telling that they said: 'to ensure we use our licence fee resources as efficiently as possible, we’re sending this response to everyone'. It is an admission that they had too many complaints about this article to reply to them individually.

However, I don't feel that they should ignore my e-mail just because they had others on the same subject. I didn't write as part of a group. I wrote because of my own concerns.

I guess I must find out how to take this to the next step.

Extravirginolive · 21/07/2025 16:46

It's amazing isn't it, encourage equality, diversity and inclusion by smearing people as racist homophobes.

The whole EDI shambles has been an utter disaster.

The only people it appears to help are the spiteful with their gossip.

So sick of it. What a horrible place this country has become.

FannyCann · 21/07/2025 16:46

BeLemonNow · 21/07/2025 16:22

@FannyCann It's part of open justice. Anyone can go and read the court papers/watch the tribunal as I understand it.

Quoting a document isn't fundamentally different from quoting a verbal response.

If anything, it is better in my view as it's easy for quotes to be manipulated/taken out of context to look more outrageous.

Here it's an entire email so everyone can read the whole thing and make their minds up.

I should have clarified, I meant that I'm a bit surprised at publishing it ahead of Kate Searle being in the witness box. It's brilliant that it's out there for us all to see, but wouldn't it have been better for KS to be heading into the witness box relatively unaware of what a massive balls up she made? If nothing else it has slightly stolen Naomi's thunder, the moment of the big reveal when KS is on the spot in the witness box.
If she does call in sick tomorrow morning I would hazard a guess the publication of that email might be a contributory factor.

Anyway, like I said, it hardly matters. Her goose is well and truly cooked.

CriticalCondition · 21/07/2025 16:46

Hmm. I agree, that account by Boswell doesn't accord with my impressions of CM who came across as conscientious, fair-minded and honest. She did disregard gossip and rumours. Was he watching her live or only going on written reports of evidence?

PronounssheRa · 21/07/2025 16:46

There is a broader issue here in that this tribunal draws back the curtain on the NHS, and how it operates

I'd like to think that NHS fife is an outlier but I think many people who have worked in the NHS or have family that do will recognise some of this behaviour and the complete lack of professionalism or organisation.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 21/07/2025 16:46

(I'm a bit behind) but I would have liked NC to follow up:

So....is it fair to compromise 200 other women to satisfy 1 woman?

I mean it makes me wonder, in what circumstances would 200 women be told to budge up for one? What would make a woman so special? Oh, being a man.

Harassedevictee · 21/07/2025 16:48

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 21/07/2025 16:45

I have had a reply to my own complaint about the headline and found it a 'none-response'.

They sent a general reply that did not address my objections. (I pointed out how and why the headline did not represent the day's events or even the article that it headed. I also pointed out how some of the word choices had effects that were far from neutral.)

It is telling that they said: 'to ensure we use our licence fee resources as efficiently as possible, we’re sending this response to everyone'. It is an admission that they had too many complaints about this article to reply to them individually.

However, I don't feel that they should ignore my e-mail just because they had others on the same subject. I didn't write as part of a group. I wrote because of my own concerns.

I guess I must find out how to take this to the next step.

I got a similar response from the BBC.

rebmacesrevda · 21/07/2025 16:48

PronounssheRa · 21/07/2025 16:46

There is a broader issue here in that this tribunal draws back the curtain on the NHS, and how it operates

I'd like to think that NHS fife is an outlier but I think many people who have worked in the NHS or have family that do will recognise some of this behaviour and the complete lack of professionalism or organisation.

I have encountered people like this in the NHS, unfortunately.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:49

anyolddinosaur · 21/07/2025 16:04

Anyone observing who can say whether the judge was making notes of the unevidenced allegations?

I've somehow missed knowing that the doctor said racism allegation was untrue and he didnt want to pursue it. Anyone know where that came from?

I'd expect if the judge made notes it would be "nasty tittle-tattle with no evidence and failure to report/ investigate if it happened. Must increase compensation to reflect bad conduct."

Also entirely unbelievable that any nurse would call a dr the P word in his presence even if they used the word habitually? It sounds increasingly like someone was making the suggestion that she had to him in the hope he would come onboard with the fabrication.

Flashout · 21/07/2025 16:50

FannyCann · 21/07/2025 16:46

I should have clarified, I meant that I'm a bit surprised at publishing it ahead of Kate Searle being in the witness box. It's brilliant that it's out there for us all to see, but wouldn't it have been better for KS to be heading into the witness box relatively unaware of what a massive balls up she made? If nothing else it has slightly stolen Naomi's thunder, the moment of the big reveal when KS is on the spot in the witness box.
If she does call in sick tomorrow morning I would hazard a guess the publication of that email might be a contributory factor.

Anyway, like I said, it hardly matters. Her goose is well and truly cooked.

She will have worked out what a monumental fuck up that email is, a long time ago. I really hope she shows up tomorrow.

UpDo · 21/07/2025 16:50

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:12

It was so important that she did! And the bundle is available to the public via a link which Maya also included so perfectly reasonable for her to do that. It is no different from a journo doing it...sadly they didn't.

The reason is that this is vitally important information in the public interest. This idea that an ideology can take hold of management like this is extraordinary and effects all of us in lots of indirect ways. It needs to be transparent and NHS Fife don't want it to be.

Whilst none of us would like to see our mistakes aired in this way this is more than a mistake. Much more.

Given that they'd not submitted this with the initial disclosure I think they were also hoist by their own petard from that point.

There's a link to the bundle? I hadn't realised. Can anyone post it please?

PlasticAcrobat · 21/07/2025 16:53

NImumconfused · 21/07/2025 16:35

To me, that doesn't entirely chime with the reporting we've been following here this afternoon - it paints LM in a much worse light.

Agree. I don't find Boswell's summaries very helpful as they are always so extremely partisan. I mean, it is nice and cathartic to read someone essentially cheering on the side that I want to win; but the summaries do not remotely make me think I have stepped out of my bubble and seen the raw facts of the day's events.

Mumofteenandtween · 21/07/2025 16:54

Would it not have been better for JR to have got CM to re-iterate all the things that she did to try and protect Sandie’s rights?

Rather than the unsubstantiated (and seemingly wrong) gossip about whether she is racist or homophobic.

Because even if Sandie is racist / homophobic / transphobic / a serial killer and they should have sacked her for it, she still has the same rights to have the process followed appropriately.

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 16:57

Mumofteenandtween · 21/07/2025 16:54

Would it not have been better for JR to have got CM to re-iterate all the things that she did to try and protect Sandie’s rights?

Rather than the unsubstantiated (and seemingly wrong) gossip about whether she is racist or homophobic.

Because even if Sandie is racist / homophobic / transphobic / a serial killer and they should have sacked her for it, she still has the same rights to have the process followed appropriately.

Also, the allegations are rather undermined by CM's lack of concern about SP's return to work.

Tweakie123 · 21/07/2025 16:57

Yes @LiesDoNotBecomeUsI've had exactly the same reply which didnt respond to my points at all. What is the point of a complaint process if they are just going to stick their fingers in their ears going 'la la la cant hear you'. I complained to ECU, they've come back to say I first need to complain again about the response so i shall be doing that now. Im not a complainer in general but i am so angry about this whole thing! I am cheered by how badly its going for Fife, but then get so angry/upset at how badly Sandy was and is being treated.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:59

CriticalCondition · 21/07/2025 16:46

Hmm. I agree, that account by Boswell doesn't accord with my impressions of CM who came across as conscientious, fair-minded and honest. She did disregard gossip and rumours. Was he watching her live or only going on written reports of evidence?

It does accord with mine. I think we are impressed by the fact that she realised the suspension couldn’t reasonably continue given the evidence and knowing an ET was coming and, of course, that she was willing to bin KS et al but she didn’t keep proper records, her research was limited. She used an anonymous report left on her desk and then lost it.

I have no doubt she was better prepared and, in my view, that is because she has been paying close attention to what has gone on already and thoroughly rehearsed. I think she was genuine in recognising that SP is a person worthy of being treated fairly which is, sadly, astonishing in this context but I don’t think she followed that through in any substantial way and was cleaning things up for the coming ET. Her approach was still chaotic. She didn’t source original documents and didn’t read relevant emails because she claimed they were relevant to her work.

There was a refreshing sense of honesty in the areas she’d decided were safe ie she knows KS is a cooked goose so safe to say that. We might hear from KS tomorrow that CM never said that. The idea that KS said nothing in response is, in my view, not believable. She’d been accused of a significant failure that might make her culpable.

although perhaps she then lobbied for CM to be replaced by the person who came back from sick leave.

at any event, lots of holes that don’t quite add up

viques · 21/07/2025 17:00

oldwomanwhoruns · 21/07/2025 16:07

'And now, Ms Searle, about that email you sent to the world & his wife, condemning Sandy without even attempting to get her side of the story...' 😂

"I plead the 5th, my belly, the dog ate my homework, amnesia, my hamsters sick, have I had my tea, the big boy girl told me to do it , can I have a glass of water/ a chair, I've got a get out of jail card/ joker so should I play them now?"

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/07/2025 17:00

BettyBooper · 21/07/2025 16:22

From Boswelltoday on X

“Spiteful Tittle-Tattle”: A Manager’s Admission of Ignorance, and an Institution’s Abdication of Duty

The afternoon cross-examination of Charlotte Myles stripped away any illusion that Sandy Peggie’s suspension had been based on evidence. It revealed instead a disturbing truth: that an NHS manager with no prior relationship to the nurse, no understanding of her beliefs, and no access to foundational documents had been allowed to shape the course of her professional fate - with little more than gossip, confusion, and blind deference to policy.

Myles’ admission that she had not reviewed the original suspension documents before conducting her risk assessment should have ended the matter. Yet she proceeded to reinstate Peggie’s return under restrictive conditions, claiming she was satisfied there was “no risk” - then later reversed that position, citing rota complications. In reality, her testimony showed no coherent reasoning at all - only an opportunistic toggling between process justifications and personal instinct.

Pressed on the alleged racist and homophobic remarks, Myles confirmed the details were absent or unverifiable. The doctor supposedly targeted by a racial slur had no recollection of it. No dates, no statements, no incident forms - just ambient accusation, repeated and reused. Myles described it as “spiteful tittle-tattle,” yet allowed it to inform her framing of Peggie’s case. Her claim to neutrality collapsed under its own contradictions.

Even the documents she relied upon were a mystery to her. She could not say whether her risk assessment drew from the formal Datix report, the “hate incident” statement, or an anonymous summary left on her desk without attribution. She didn’t ask. She didn’t verify. She didn’t remember. Yet from this fog, she signed off on conditions that implied Peggie was a threat.

Her approach to the changing room issue exposed even more. Myles confirmed that roughly 200 women used the shared female space - yet saw no problem in permitting a trans-identifying male colleague to access it. She acknowledged there was no remaining guarantee of single-sex privacy. When asked whether women with religious or trauma-based needs could safely raise objections, Myles agreed they should not have to - but offered no mechanism to protect them. The burden, unspoken but clear, was on women to absorb the discomfort in silence.

She did not know the law. She misunderstood the Equality Act. She believed that respecting gender identity overrode a woman’s right to express belief - even in a healthcare context, even about material sex. Her language veered between deflection and appeasement, but her logic was consistent: deference to the policy, at any cost to women.

And the cost was real. Peggie was displaced, monitored, and restricted - not because of what she did, but because of what she believed. Myles confirmed Peggie had never harmed a patient, had shown empathy to trans individuals, and had no prior complaints in a thirty-year career. Still, Myles upheld the view that oversight was needed - not to protect patients, but to protect the institution from further scrutiny.

By the end, the portrait was damning. Myles had neither command of the facts nor courage to dissent. She permitted hearsay to carry the weight of formal complaint and allowed policy abstractions to trump clinical reality. Her testimony did not defend her decisions. It exposed them.

The tribunal continues. But the evidence now speaks with cumulative force: in the conflict between a woman’s grounded concern and an institution’s ideological drift, NHS Fife chose expedience. It chose to move the woman. And it sent the message that in today’s NHS, the risk is not misconduct - it is noticing

A really interesting perspective. It seems Boswell has focused his legal mind on CM's open admissions of the lack of due process in her actions. She did repeatedly cite that she hadn't seen or read certain documents, cited gossip without evidence that was relayed to her and subjected SP to extended oversight - despite the lack of any evidence. As seen by Fife dismissing the case against SP.

I wonder whether the relief of hearing someone trying to be more objective and fair to SP in that toxic institution obscured many of her failures to ensure due process "I found a document on my desk" ets.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 17:01

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 16:57

Also, the allegations are rather undermined by CM's lack of concern about SP's return to work.

I suspect this she has been instructed by NHS Fife to do this as they are so desperate, as we know from their statement, to re steer public opinion.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 17:02

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/07/2025 17:00

A really interesting perspective. It seems Boswell has focused his legal mind on CM's open admissions of the lack of due process in her actions. She did repeatedly cite that she hadn't seen or read certain documents, cited gossip without evidence that was relayed to her and subjected SP to extended oversight - despite the lack of any evidence. As seen by Fife dismissing the case against SP.

I wonder whether the relief of hearing someone trying to be more objective and fair to SP in that toxic institution obscured many of her failures to ensure due process "I found a document on my desk" ets.

I agree

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2025 17:05

Re the suggestion that JR is attempting to pin on 'rogue individuals' which somehow NHS Fife doesn't have responsibility for...

...that doesn't square with the Saga of The Statement.

BeLemonNow · 21/07/2025 17:06

If anyone doubts how easy it is to get considered an ism in the workplace, been there, done that.

I didn't fill in an Equal Opportunities Form. I'm mixed, it's ambiguous what to put. I didn't put a flag up for "Diversity Week".

Complained about a colleague making too much noise in the office, he said something like "Is this because I'm Scottish?"

I said I didn't even bloody know that he was Scottish!

anyolddinosaur · 21/07/2025 17:06

I assume Jane Russell has been appointed by the environment agency with the instruction to do a crap job. Which makes it important to support good representation for the individuals involved. I believe the appropriate garden to be signposted Public servant sued for saying sex is binary and it is linked to
Chair of SEEN sued for saying 'only women menstruate', although that garden says it has enough plants for now.

Those who like to see Naomi in action will be pleased to know she will be there, although I dont know how it works when there is also a KC representing another respondent.

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