NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

Morning all - am in and waiting for lift off
👋

There was a witness that didn't appear yesterday as JR sent her home as didn't think they'd get to her, is she going before KS today?

A reminder from Andrea Dworkin:

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are."

WFTCHTJ has just transitioned into WELCOME TO THE CONFERENCE

🎄🎂🍸 Merry Kate Searle Day everyone!

It's good to see that with proper infrastructure, sufficiently staffed, and clear guidelines, how well a very large number of observers can behave.

It's not illegal to support Trump, although it is extremely detrimental to women's rights, feminism, and the rights of minorities everywhere (and democracy itself).

I don't think supporting Trump should strip a person of their rights. The evidence about SP's wider attitudes, however, is being used to show

(THIS IS NOT UNDISPUTED 'TRUTH', IT'S THE ARGUMENT BEING MADE AT TRIBUNAL)

that SP is a person with intolerant attitudes, that her dislike of DU had nothing to do with intimidation or safety/ dignity/ privacy. She disliked DU for being trans, because she is transphobic and she sought to bully, harass her at any opportunity. THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY THE TRUTH BUT THE ARGUMENT BEING HEARD AT THE TRIAL

Wow. You visit family for the weekend and have 1 day off work yesterday and miss nearly 2 whole threads! 😀. On the plus side, I now know more about celery than I ever imagined possible... Really pleased that I have a gap in meetings this morning and can follow KS's session in real time. Waiting for my flabber to be gasted.

Well. I clicked through to the archived document from this post and it's completely batshit.

x.com/GenderReceipts/status/1947537912247037972

You can be intersex and straight (attracted to the same gender)

https://archive.ph/706yG

I think it was Dworkin who said that the right considers women to be private property and the left considers them public property.

I don't remember who said that to accuse women who reject left wing bullshit of supporting right wing bullshit is to vastly underestimate how much bullshit there is.

Well in Scotland, since he's not elected by the Scottish electorate, supporting Trump or not supporting him is pretty ineffective. The only people that matter, are the ones with votes, who voted for the giant scunner, or democrats who sat on their hands on voting day because reasons they didn't vote for Kamala.

I suppose they are using the Trump stuff to bolster a narrative that SP is racist, homophobic, etc and therefore her attitude to DU in the changing room is more about bigotry than anything else. But this seems to be largely smoke and mirrors. She allegedly used a racist slur (but nobody reported it, which they absolutely should have done, and the person it was allegedly used towards never heard anything). She allegedly said homophobic things about her lesbian daughter (but her daughter has shot that down on Twitter). No concerns have been raised about her practice in 30 years, which you would expect to happen if she was going about saying discriminatory things left right and centre and potentially treating patients in an unequal way. And Lottie Myles described it all as "tittle tattle" with no evidence behind it.

It seems some parties have made up their minds about the sort of person she is and are now seeking anything to support that view, even when it's just tittle-tattle and rumour.

I don’t know why people post that they hope SP is awarded a large settlement.

Do ETs award punitive damages? It is rare for people to get even a token towards their costs.

Do any legal people have a sense of how often ETs go beyond just compensatory awards, if ever?

I suppose they are using the Trump stuff to bolster a narrative that SP is racist, homophobic, etc and therefore her attitude to DU in the changing room is more about bigotry than anything else.

Yes exactly this.

None of it matters though, because SP has been cleared of all allegations of wrongdoing.

The hearing is about how Fife handled the complaint against her, a separate question.

I'm not saying I agree with that narrative.

"This can mean internal organs - such as chromosomes or ovaries."

I thought I detected a hint of Scottish accent on top of the broad Yorkshire when she was less sure of herself during the afternoon. It's been fascinating hearing other people's perspectives; I'm still inclined to think that her underlying character is straightforward, straight talking, but it's also likely that there is a strong element of self interest. When there are conflicting accounts of what people said and did, it's very hard to pin down the facts. People can mislead themselves and state something they believe to be true, because they have told themselves the story so many times that it has become a "memory".

I know

She disliked DU for being trans, because she is transphobic

That is Fife and Upton's argument, but many of us would say that there is no evidence of transphobia. She didn't want a man in the changing room. Any man, but there is no evidence that other men have tried to use the changing room, only one Trans identifying man, who could have used alternatives but chose not to.

A number of people in Fife NHS appear to believe that TWAW. I don't; I and many others know that TWANW and our beliefs are as much protected as any others.

Do you think someone's confused organs and organelle?

This can mean internal organs - such as chromosomes

And this is the NHS.

Where can I find my chromosome organ?

Good God. That's awful

Morning all, welcome to another day of a woman asserting her rights, regardless ..
In case anybody has mislaid their TT on Nitter link, here it is again
Tribunal Tweets (@tribunaltweets) | nitter.poast.org

I know a lot of you were favourable to Charlotte Lottie Myles yesterday but I still don't understand why LM/CM decided to bring back Peggie under conditions given the following:

• allegation of homophobia but no evidence. In fact the exact opposite as she supports her lesbian daughter.
• allegation of racism but no evidence, the opposite as the person involved said he's no memory of it
• allegation of transphobia, despite all the years she'd dealt with all kinds of patients, including trans
• allegations of inappropriate clinical practise, no evidence, in fact cleared of it the day before this tribunal recommenced
• expression of GC view, completely legal, she's entitled to believe men can't become women
• expressing a view that men, even those who identify as women, should not be in a women's changing room. A perfectly valid and legal entitlement.

Instead we have a nurse of such exemplary behaviour that there had never been a complaint against her. And she had 30 years of experience. Yet she gets punished

• not the shifts she wanted
• put on suspension
• asked to move to another hospital
• unreal stress of this 'procedure'

The doctor meanwhile who started all this

• was believed by every body
• fully supported
• was not made to change any of his shifts
• told Peggie was a terrible person
• Was allowed speak to everybody
• Was believed over a nurse of 30 years standing

Then we have all the doctors and other staff

• sending out emails to the whole world
• totally inappropriate emails
• whispering foul things about Sandie re homophobia, racism, transphobic,
• And nada

Seems to me it was everyone else who should have been investigated for spreading malicious gossip, reporting untruths as fact to HR, for not supporting the nurse who had worked there 30 years. It's unreal the influence Upton had on the medics and he only there a wet week.

I didn't manage to get access this time (applied too late) but have they improved the previous tech setup where any audience member could turn on their mic and camera and proceed to dry their hair?