NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

Placemarking. Very long time lurker (about 20 years!) rarely/ never post but looking forward to the day ahead.

If the person who believes they have been libelled reports it, there is a process MN must go through which may lead to the post being removed. If they fail to go through that process, they can be held liable for the defamation.

Breaking my lurk to say I'm looking forward to today! I wonder if we'll get a judgment at the end of this week?

Fifer : basically the Big High Heid Yin has tae be pretty fuckin scunnert afore ye'll be able tae read it in plain normal English, that he's seek fu up ay dealin wi bams talking pish.

Well, we may need to hold fire on this one. The RCN thing is just beginning and we don't know how that will turn out. IANAL but even though the right to a single sex changing room is protected in law, it might be that unions don't have to fight for that if they have an official stance that differs from it; after all, campaigning to change the law is partly why they exist, if they think the law as it is doesn't serve members well.

I don't know, again IANAL, but I could see how that argument could be made. I think it would be stupid, but the law can be an ass. Would be interested to know what the legal eagles think.

It could be months before the judgment is given

The judgement will be months away (probably) but it certainly won't immediately follow the end of the evidence.

It’s interesting to see how polarised perspective is. His behaviour is bullying and harassing. I can’t see how that’s a reportable statement.

As far as I can remember he reported her for waiting outside, and for asking him to leave, and engineered a witch-hunt by making false claims about compromised patient safety.

I think I remember something about asking her why she wasn’t getting changed, but that could be from the Darlington case where again a man tried to insist women change in front of him.

SP has been cleared of misbehaviour by a disciplinary panel, so those accusations are not acceptable. She didn’t bully and harass him despite his attempt to claim she did.

No chance. It's normally 3 to 6 months.

Big Sond has booked fower weeks aff tae play the gowf in Albufeira

I think I remember something about asking her why she wasn’t getting changed, but that could be from the Darlington case

That was Darlington.

With the new layout of the room she was very close to the camera. Not nerves! I thought that she was just being a thespian. The 'aren't I honest and open and so very very honest' vibes.
And her actual words were streams of meaningless management-speak cliches (plus the TRA cliches, too).

Aw tae mak some tost, see yis in the next threed

I'll put my head up and say I support Sandie's case because I don't think allowing male people into female changing rooms provides 'single sex' provision.

Whether Sandie held racist, homophobic, or other views is irrelevant (and, separately, not supported by any direct evidence). NHS Scotland has 180k employees -- some of them will have disgusting views. Scotland had the highest % of Trump supporters in Europe.

I do think there are some comments in this thread that cross a line. Looking up Upton's mother's thesis and speculating as to to her experience, or assume the best of Peggie and the worst of Upton. I don't need Sandie to be a 'good person' for NHS Fife to have been wrong in their policy and how they handled her complaint.

Well I never. Who knew!

To be fair DU hasn't been reported as demanding anyone strip. In his own evidence he said he changes in a corner with his back to the room. I don't know if that's true but it hasn't been challenged.

Yes but there’s no balance is there? If there are 100s of you reporting just my posts , and only 1 of me? Mumsnet don’t have time to trawl through the context - they just see what’s directly reported to them.

I never used to report posts, as I think it’s much better to let people have their say.

However after I realised this imbalance, and how it was being used to silence my dissent, I thought I needed to follow the same approach. So, I started reporting transphobic posts and personal attacks, using the same standards that are so scrupulously applied to me, but then it became clear that this would involve me (and only me) reporting many, many dozens of posts to mumsnet HQ all day!
A) I have no wish to badger HQ like this, I’m sure they have better to do with their time.
B) that’s hardly going to endear me to them either is it? or make me look reasonable?
Likewise, when I simply tried to highlight the abuse on the threads itself I also got reported for derailing, Any which way I’m in a precarious position.

I need to he exceptionally careful here, if I want to express dissent about trans issues and feminism on this site.
I try my very best to be so, while also speaking plainly on a subject that is important to me.

Hope we can go back to the subject of the tribunal now and allow people to mutually share different perspectives on the evidence presented.

girlghostbusters
I don't need Sandie to be a 'good person' for NHS Fife to have been wrong in their policy and how they handled her complaint.

This.

It's not illegal to support Trump and it doesn't mean a person hasn't got basic workplace rights or should inherently be held at a disadvantage during a complaints procedure. It is absolutely mind boggling that anyone who considers themselves liberal, fair and progressive should also think basic workplace rights and fairness should apply only to people they agree with politically. It's the absolute opposite of what they claim to stand for.

I see LM’s testimony and the behaviour of a poster on this thread as fine examples of transactional analysis. The victim-persecutor-rescuer cycle in particular.

One of the tactics that has made the Denton game playbook successful beyond the widest imaginings of those who supported it.

KS may display the same characteristics cycle. All on TRSOH, of course.

Regarding the RCN, i would have thought her claim would be that they refused to represent her based on her GC belief which would be discrimination.

The argument is that refusing to represent women on this issue is indirect sex discrimination. I think the unions generally have some protection from the fact that their terms do not commit them to defending every case. However, having given this subject more thought than when it first came up on these threads, I think a claim of indirect sex discrimination may succeed. Yes, the unions may campaign to change the law. That does not allow them to break the existing law.

The emails between the RCN and the Fife RCN rep will be of interest.

100%

It wasn't me, I wasn't there, I was just watching from over here, and besides, I couldn't afford the bus fare...

My earworm is back