NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

It was put to Isla Bumba - had she considered the Regs when drafting her policy. She said no

I can't tell you how gutted I am to have to miss today, being elsewhere. Such a day to miss.

I'm sure yesterday Lottie Myles said she was fine in a changing room with a 'transperson', as you all kept saying 'but it's the sex that's the thing! Not the trans. Go on, Naomi - ask her about the sex, about the man.' But Naomi didn't.

Michael Foran, on his usual excellent commentary yesterday evening, said LM had said she was happy to share her rugby changing room with a TW. She didn't did she? I'm sure Michael got that wrong.

Re-bumping.

We're on thread 35. If we’re not careful it'll be thread 135 before we know it and poor nauticant will be a hollow-eyed wraith begging us to stop.

Let's not engage.

Jesus wept.

That's embarrassing.

Sandra Peggie was cleared of misconduct, so it seems odd to continue to claim that she bullied Upton.

You'll need to use your bigly letters for ordering us around!

And clarify if derailers are those talking about celery, hot weetabix, or total bollocks?

Just a small FYI

There are texts between Sandie and a couple of co-workers that say things like ‘guess who was using the CR today?’ ‘Omg lmao’, which Sandie defended as expressions of shock between colleagues that he was daring to go in rather than poking fun at Upton.

His evidence contradicts this. She gave him privacy when he was changing - she didn’t confront him. He was making notes and imagining things or making them up later such as the patient safety item when she left a cubicle to attend to another matter while she was nurse in charge. He was stalking her, making notes on her, inserting himself into her spaces.

On the date of the incident she had menstrual flooding and when she was dealing with that he actively started to undress in her presence. He again wants to provoke an interaction- he already intentionally and without consent has been bringing his penis into a single sex space. Isla Bumba records later no policy but crack on. But at this point he’d said I’ll be doing it suck it up to his manager and no one consulted all the other users of the single sex space.

Half of America voted for Trump. Doesn’t mean they can be discriminated for protected characteristics. You yourself will have views some of us don’t like. But I’d want to make sure your individual rights are protected and processes are followed.

We live in a democracy with a rule of law. Hence the Supreme Court has decided. People are ignoring it. This Tribunal will decide. If ignored on we go. The rule of law will stand above all else.

I respect Sandie’s rights - regardless of her political opinions. (Having said all that I do not think there is any evidence to support your statement and you haven't provided any).

Not just embarrassing - misleading and harmful - is it still on the website?

Yes. And writing someone off for being in the Green Party is just as bigoted as writing someone off for being a "Trump supporter". Likewise with "pansexual, though perhaps I'm a bigot for tending to be a bit judgmental about people who use that term with a straight face.

It's a play that for whatever reason I never got to see, that is until it was on at the National Theatre the other year. Having seen the consequences of gender identity ideology spreading widely through society, I thought The Crucible might speak to me. In that context I found it to be incredibly powerful.

Just desperate attempts to smear and discredit SP. They'll fling anything they can invent, imagine or imply as they scrabble about to try and justify their own wrongdoing.

It all only makes the people trying to smear look even more vengeful, mendacious, and morally bankrupt.

WTAF?!!!!!!

The scientific illiteracy of this institution is astonishing and appalling.

This is the exchange about texts:

JR - msgs between you and colleague, 'Trans doctor
was in CR this evening when I went in' Reply OMG 'PSML'. Pissing myself laughing. You and colleague were both laughing at DU.
SP - I believe that we were laughing about the colleague that I had previously asked if DU was going to use the female CR and thought he was winding
me up about it
JR - you were both mocking DU because trans
SP - no
JR - she said PMSL, you were both laughing about the TW in the CR
SP - no, we were more surprised that DU was using CR,
JR - you were making light of the fact that a TW was in CR,
SP - I was not making light of it
JR - you were, making jokes about it,
SP - Charlene knew that I wasn't happy about it, we weren't making light of it, it was about Chris who told us it would happen
JR - new msg 'I'll lose the argument, everyone will side with minority'
JR cont and your mum said 'I'll make him into a woman' what did that me
SP - I've got no idea, my mum and dad were trying to make me feel better, it was awful, we were trying to make light of it, <missing> they wanted me to run down to the hospital and tell them, they thought it
was ridiculous, they were trying to humour me.
JR - when you say 'everyone will side with the minority' you disagree with that
SP - yes
JR - IX interview 'SP held strong beliefs' this is about DU trans status is this true
SP - no problem with TW status, just that DU allowed in the CR.

Found this on Twitter. Carol Potter & the Mean Girls ( KS, ED, LC - actually all of those involved including JR after yesterday’s questions) taking NHS Fife further and further into the depths

That's how I remember it, it was raised and addressed back in Feb.

Bullying a colleague is clearly misconduct and against the NMC Code. But Sandie was cleared. And texts to a colleague about someone else aren't "bullying" anyway, if the person they're about has no knowledge of them.

DU clearly isn’t an outlier in his determination to spin events to portray his victimhood.

It’s not a bug, it’s a feature. Another one.

All despite this being a political issue that has been rumbling in the back ground throughout 2023 and contributed to the resignation of the first minister.

Here's a clip of Nicola Sturgeon lumping in misogyny, homophobia and racism in along with transphobia - basically anyone opposing her GRR bill.
Looks like many of the staff had absorbed the NS view.

Trump supporter? I'll raise you Nicola Sturgeon supporter.

https://x.com/treesey/status/1947272564817924316

@GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen
Please - a woman should be happy to get out not just her tits but change her clothes when in full menstrual flood in front of a man who is himself in a state of undress.

I don’t know if there is a connection between menstrual flooding and how your hormones might affect your feelings, or if it’s just the stress of the situation, but when I have flooded I have also panicked and been very stressed. Happened once at work and I had to carry on and then had a 15 minute break and I didn’t have a change of underwear and 15 mins is very tight for washing and drying a pair of knickers and yourself. I was alone in the single person locked loo and in no mood for any conversation.

Please don't feed the trolls!

This TRA has staying power unlike the usual ploppers, so you can guarantee they'll stick around trying to derail by posting ridiculous things to provoke an outraged response.

If they can back up a claim with evidence, grand. Maybe they should just post the evidence instead of teasing it out over 17 posts. Personally I doubt their "evidence" would be what we would consider damning in any way.

If they are just doing the usual talking shite and trying to get a reaction, lets just ignore them eh?

ETA: sorry I'm not trying to thread police really, I just find this sort of behaviour tedious

Thank you …yes if course I remember that now!

I remain convinced that DEI departments across both public and private sectors have been disregarding the existence of these regs, never mind involve their health and safety professionals, let alone seek legal advice.

Lottie Myles is/was a green party candidate

Of course!

https://www.nhsfife.org/services/all-services/sexual-health/lgbtqiplus/#:~:text=What%20does%20Intersex%20mean%3F,male%20and%20female%20sexual%20organs.

Still live on the website.

"This means someone who was born with male and female sexual organs."

They aren't just saying secondary sexual characteristics, they are saying 'sexual organs'.

I wonder if it will be taken down by the end of the day?

does anyone know when the verdict will be given, roughly? This doctor knew exactly what they were doing
and acted appalling towards SP. How fucking dare they?