NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

Wee 5ft 5 Sandie bullied 6ft+ Dr Upton? Have a word wi yerself 😂

I do have one question - if somebody posts something that seems libellous, is it best to ask it to be removed or to allow it to stay?

they don’t have a counter argument, they just scream and stamp their feet, whilst crying bully. The only bully here is Dr U and anyone sane can see this.

I think it’s better to post the evidence and then ignore them. I posted because it wasn’t true that there were no texts - there were - and it undermines our attempts to be accurate if we don’t check the evidence. I don’t agree with that poster’s interpretation of the texts, to be clear.

The usual craic in here is let it stand, someone will be along to debunk it and it's worth letting them show themselves up for the numpties they really are, Operation Let Them Speak and all that.

I'm not sure about libellous claims though, maybe one of the lawyers on here can tell us?

Lottie Myles may have political views I disagree with but she’s the only person from NHS Fife so far to give evidence that she tried to give Sandie fair treatment (and DrU). And as pp have be said, if her evidence is an accurate reflection of her actions then it shows that it is perfectly possible to hold opposing views on gender identity and still treat colleagues properly. That’s the message she appears to have given in court anyway, which is welcome from any “side”.

We can speculate all we like on whether she is just a lot better at reading the room than her colleagues. And/or whether her evidence is positioning herself for surviving the future inevitable clear out of NHSF after this is over. The judge and panel will of course be the arbiters of how credible they found her evidence and putting it in context of Sandie’s overall treatment.

If it is, then someone from NHSF is hanging out here. <waves>

NHS Fife live in the land of make believe. Any able ambitious person will a new job lined up before any ruling comes out. It could be that they left after February’s shit show

Sorry if this has been done - it’s a rather fast moving thread…

From TT - ED evidence lasted nearly 2 days - she was the witness in both the morning and afternoon sessions on 13 and 14 Feb. She was asked by both JR and NC about SPs “beliefs” and did not take the opportunity to mention SPs alleged homophobia or racism. She had up her sleeve a very specific racist incident against another member of medical staff and didn’t bring it up even when specifically questioned about her beliefs and whether there had ever been any other incidents. She alleges (according to CM) SP was homophobic towards her own child but doesn’t mention it within the context of her “beliefs” about GI despite making a bit of a fudge of sexual orientation and gender identity (“Beth had been working in the dept, we knew Beth, I didn't communicate to anyone on the staff, I didn't think that there was any need to do any further communication about sexual orientation or identity.”)

DU identifies as a lesbian and ED has told CM that she believes SP is anti lesbian (on account of things she’s said about her DD) but doesn’t bring it up when asked.

She has known her since 1994. She gives evidence of a conflict with one junior 7 years prior where she says SP was not at fault but not the incident where she calls a doctor by a racist slur despite the investigation being about a “hate incident” towards a doctor.

JR - what did you know about Sandies' belief
ED - she has strong beliefs, she is a fan of Donald Trumps and his policies, she lets you know
JR - how did you know
ED - just through convo, she was on holiday and told us she stayed in the Trump Hotel

NC - all your time as charge nurse, no issues or complaints?
ED - one, a jr member of staff, could have been a clash, jr person
ED - felt driven to unprof behaviour.
NC - jr was unprofessional, no reason to think SP unprof?
ED - no

NC [find new page] JH's email to HR ppl where she describes interview w you [reads re SX being the last resort and said never a SX before in AE] Vanishingly rare?
ED Yes
NC There must have been upsets before. Allegations of B&H
ED It's not freq
NC No allegs of bullying ever?
ED I dont think any allegations of bullying before. Only remember junior nurse under SP before.

I think these are the text messages that Tandora is referring to. Also the accusation of racism made here for the first time. NC objects at this point.

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1886744135266177236

Today’s headline on the front page of The Herald is “RCN union ’hostile’ to gender-critical members”, subheading “Bosses face new accusations”.

Its available on press reader, which is often available for free through local library membership.

Sorry if this has already been posted- I do my best to catch up, then there’s always more by the time I get to the end!

Member of the Green Party and pansexual? One could be an accident, but two looks like carelessness a theme.

It also brings to mind Stella O'Malley's comments(*) about girls calling themselves "pansexual" to be polite. They don't really know who they're attracted to yet but they don't want to be rude by excluding anyone. And CM is certainly diplomatic.

(*Gender a Wider Lens ep 103 on teenage girls "From Bi to Pan to Trans")

Normally I would just let that poster show themselves and their total desperation up, but if they're actually libelling people now, I'd report it. I think MN could be liable too if they let it stay up.

Lottie Myles is interesting. Her opinions are clearly aligned with DU being a special kind of woman and therefore entitled to dismay all the ordinary women by hanging around where he wasn’t wanted. She is firmly drinking the KoolAid.

None the less, she appears to have made an attempt at professional procedure, and attempted to be fair to SP. Not entirely fair, let face it pragmatism tends to win out most places.

She did make an effort despite her beliefs- and that makes her unusual in those circles which tend to demonstrate more of a purity spiralling mob behaviour.

https://x.com/DarcyWAHF/status/1947402436202598640

Excuse me how am I libelling people? I know that there has been a concerted effort to silence me by getting me banned from mumsnet 😡 but nothing I have said is against talk guidelines.

Usually several months after the end of the tribunal

Question to lawyers - would NHS Fife have been able to consider evidence that came to light during the tribunal when considering the disciplinary claim, or are they two distinct things?

There was mention on X that Sandie is returning to work, back in A&E.
She's been off recently hasn't she? And now absolved via the internal investigation I suppose there is nothing to prevent her returning now?

I'd like to know when she is due back - we should all send her a best wishes/good luck or whatever card. So there's a mountain of post awaiting her when she has her Pretty Woman Big Mistake moment.

It's not libellous to report accusations as part of proceedings, making it clear that they are being said as part of active proceedings and attributing them appropriately and reporting any denial (which could be why Fife insists on saying it, so that they can get it in headlines, albeit in quotation marks, and then useful idiots will think it's fact and run with it). Basically, when you're clear that the story is "ED accused SP of thinking The Godfather Part III is actually good" or whatever. Unless it's actually proven, though, it's libellous to claim that it's undisputed fact.

Happy Searle Day everyone.

It's better than ice cream! It's better than springtime! It's better than sex!

I've heard.

Agree. In terms of the tribunal, Lottie Myles was an excellent witness because (1) she exposed the witch hunt against Sandie, and (2) she exposed her own limited understanding of the law & the reasons women need ss CR. Both those factors are helpful for the submissions.

And she gave us Kate Searle Eve and made it extra special.

God I cannot wait for today's cross examination.

It's not from insurance. It's from a central pool that all the trusts pay into to smooth out cash flow.

Payments into the fund are calculated based on how much that trust has used - so the pool may pay upfront but the trust repays over a few years. For a really big payout all trusts may well need to pay extra, not only Fife.

The RCN make such a hash of these things it’s led to the creation of a new group at Darlington. You would think that unions etc would now be thinking oophs we have overshot a bit (like the Politicans). They have moved way too fast for the vast majority of the general public.

What I'm seeking to clarify is whether it's libellous to claim that SP bullied Dr Upton when an NHS Fife investigation has cleared her of misconduct.