NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

Re CM getting changed, it seems to have become received wisdom on here that she gets changed in front of trans men, i.e. women. That may be true, but we are guessing. It is quite possible that she gets changed in front of trans women when playing non-contact forms of rugby, or when the trans women are in a different team. We don't know.

In my view it is a very poor argument and invites the tribunal to jump to a conclusion that does not follow. Making it was a bad move in my view, but that is how JR justified it when she first raised the subject.

It was in an email he sent, that he was thinking of reporting it to the police as a hate incident. KS also comments on it in her email to him —- enthusiastically supporting it.

You asked if there was grounds for a defamation action. Nobody can be sued for defamation for something they said in court.

Your second question is about a workplace grievance against her line managers. That's a different question. If I was defending myself against that kind of claim in the workplace, I would simply tell the workplace investigation that CM was lying when she said that's what I said, and I never said anything of the sort. Let CM come to this investigation and repeat those allegations. At whicn point, what CM said in court is irrelevant.

If I saw the name Ó Murchú or Mac Mathúna in Irish, I would know it was a man,
If it was a woman she would be Ní Mhurchú or Nic Mhathúna.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting!

@GreenFriedTomato
I'm not watching, but your description of the witnesses matches my imagination of them. I noticed that Boswell line too; inaccuracies are a nuisance!

Well, it does mean the Revd Canon Dr Mummy is well-equipped to sympathise with her poor lambkin. And wasn't there reference somewhere to DU being encouraged by both his wife and mother in the matter of "contemporaneous" notes?

Also in Iceland: Magnusson vs Magnusdottír.

Well yes. She appears to distinguish between biology and identity. So it figures if she knows they are male she would respect their identity. But not actually see them as actual women (or men in the case of TIMS)

To be honest I've almost given up trying to understand how any sane educated person could see a trans person as exactly the same as another person of the opposite sex.
Respecting identity is one thing but that's a while other thing.

CM is a member of the Green Party - quelle surprise

https://www.instagram.com/wakefieldgreen_myles/

@CapeGooseberry Sorry for double post but I've found the quote that I feel sums up Dr. Upton and the like.

Feeling superior, no doubt. But feeling superior doesn't mean they are "cleverer" or "more intelligent". It means they regard themselves as better, more worthy human beings than those they deem to be beneath them.

Although I don't think the upper classes care about any of that.

it is in Kate searles email that if he chooses to call the police and report hate crime that he has her / their support.

To clarify what it actually says in the link you have posted.
From the article.
But none of the allegations were reported at the time they were said to have occurred or were supported by documentation, she said.
Ms Myles said they instead came from “second, third-hand information” and the doctor who was the alleged subject of the racist comment did not recall it having been made.
She said Ms Peggie “wasn’t happy” with the homophobia claims as “I believe she has a daughter who is gay”. Nicole Peggie tweeted on Monday that her mother was “my best friend”.
Ms Myles said that the lack of evidence meant she did not consider the allegations when reaching her decision to end the nurse’s suspension.

Talking of privilege, I just want to double check - am I right in thinking that SP worked at this hospital for 30 years? If so, it seems to count for very little.

According to a Twitterer. This shows NC’s approach (hopefully image will appear)

Many thanks. I wasn't the one who asked the first question by the way, but there's no way I would be willing to work under Sandie's line managers after their alleged comments.

If CM then reports that she didn't say that, or more likely declines to answer the question then what happens? As clearly she's gone on the record as having said that.

Here's a link to all 4 of Kate Searle's emails. They were hand transcribed by Maya Forstater from the document bundle available to all spectators who attend the Tribunal in person.

They have been in the public domain since 18 July 2025 and the contents have not been disputed by NHS Fife.

The highlighting was added by M Forstater.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U2v-CNXvWE_hqbpUQO3PTmjXHbu2pUwj/view?usp=drive_link

I don't think she ever said it was more than identity. There was much that I'd disagree with in terms of the testimony she gave but I suspect she is a pragmatic person who isn't personally bothered by the implications/hasn't yet thought them through, and is hoping to leave the court room as someone both employable post SC ruling, and invitable to the next rugby social event.

I think the answer to this depends on age and views regarding GI.
I am older, would prefer female for most intimate interactions. I did once (long ago) have a dodgy experience with a male masseur - I hadn't expected a male, and was somewhat surprised and perturbed when the chap turned up but told myself not to be so silly...
Anyway I am certainly sensitive to patient requests.
My daughters (early 20's) both prefer female in most situations, and I genuinely think there is not enough recognition of this. DD2 was referred for counselling at uni, unimpressed with "creepy" chap she saw and didn't go back again. Her friend referred to same chap and also never went back.
Since then DD has used a private online dermatologist for acne treatment (NHS were hopeless due to endless wait list etc), she chose a female from the list of possible specialists within the group and has been extremely happy with this Dr, being so sympathetic and encouraging etc. She messed up her appointment booking last month a got a male she hadn't seen before. Maybe it was just having a lack of continuity but she wasn't impressed and quickly made a new appointment with her regular Dr.
She just feels more comfortable dealing with female practitioners generally.
And that all has nothing to do with gender ideology and isn't even for something especially intimate.
I've got a feeling that if she requested female and got DU she'd classify him in the same class as the "creepy" counsellor.
There's a real push to erase/ignore those sex preferences that many women have, which of course leads to vulnerable women in their own homes being unable to request female only intimate care, safe in the knowledge that female actually means female.

@nebulousMoose that sketch never gets old.

the Oswald Mosley prize!

Apologies, tá brón orm, anyzee , I've just got as far as your earlier post saying the same thing!
The hazards of catching up over pages and pages..

Did they try to keep these emails from the evidence, as a matter of interest?

Thank you for this. Great quote.