NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

Oh sorry I misread your post. I don't remember her saying that but it's possible. She talked a LOT so I missed bits of her testimony as I couldn't keep up

No. anything said in court is covered by absolute privilege.

I did not observe the proceedings, just commenting on my memory of the TT transcript. When I get a moment I will try to find the reference

I think it is far, far more likely the phenomenon of women falling over themselves to competitively trumpet just how very Special and Kind and Open-Minded they are.

You see it on MN all the time. A poster who clearly has a major psychological disorder will make up some sort of mad post involving for example, their child/partner (but usually child) lying close to death in hospital, usually with some very rare and unfortunate terminal illness. This will escalate over a few days with bedside updates every couple of hours, and with many posters sending their fulsome sympathies and posting their prayers etc etc, and also with the occasional poster who knows something about said illness or even said hospital pointing out the many obvious and glaring discrepancies. But meantime an extraordinary cabal of what I can only describe as deranged cheerleaders will have sprung up, turning viciously on anyone who doubts the enMunchausened OP, and even squabbling and jockeying for position amongst themselves as to who is the Best & Greatest and KINDEST supporter of all.

It is just that. The whole bloody thing is just that. There is no glamour from the main character, just the desperate urge of those around him to use his delusion to elevate their own illusion of themselves. KS's emails are toe-curlingly embarrassing in their need (just how many people did she send them to?!) to position herself as Most, Most Wonderfully Supportive, Enlightened, Compassionate & Understanding Hand Maiden. And just like the MN phenomenon she she was prepared to viciously trample on anyone in order to get that position.

@SlackJawedDisbeliefXY re I don't understand why SP would object to her being in the women's changing room

If she said the above I most definitely missed it.
Would be a strange thing to say as it's completely reasonable and obvious that many women would object to being in a changing room with a man.

She might believe they are women but by her own admission she stated several times that people have different views. And also understands the GC view now.

I suspect you're right - in many cases it isn't the trans issue specifically that holds people back from claiming their right to same sex care, it's awareness of how stretched the NHS is, and of issues with recruiting staff. The same with care in the home; the carer I know best was always having to cover other people's shifts at very short notice.

It may well have had another effect too - that NHS upper managers have grasped the TRA attack on recognising biological sex with both hands. Not because they really don't believe in sex, but because it's easier to run a service when your staff are uniform components that can be deployed interchangeably, and your patients can be slotted in anywhere there's a space.

Yes, it makes sense when one considers that she was trying to arse cover rather than make a coherent point.

Back to the surnames, I have no idea of the relevance having raced through the thread to catch up, there is a distinct difference to male and female surnames in the Irish language. This may have been said already, but as I said, I am catching up.

For instance male is Sean O'Broin, (Byrne) or sometimes Sean Mac Broin (son of) female sibling is Aine Ni Bhroin. Ni for the female is an abbreviation of inion, daughter of. Where the female surname begins with a consonant a h is generally added.

Just thought I'd throw that in, but I still haven't a clue what the surname issue is all about!

I am also very disappointed and not a little aggravated about the slurs cast about today by JR about SP and racism, transphobia, with zero evidence. Horrible that.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/21/nurse-sandie-peggie-trans-doctor-row-nhs-fife-racism/

Sandie said she was "upset that the interaction did not seem to have had any influence on the way Beth felt, and I realised from his reaction that he did not seem to care about the stress he was causing me."

That's it isn't it, for TRAs. Any woman objecting to any "transwoman" in a single sex space is no different to a woman objecting to a black woman in such a space. Their feelings are "wrong" because they believe that a transwoman is a woman.

Never mind that such a transwoman could be physically and perceptually identical to a "cis man". Never mind that women are biologically and from history posed to react to the presence of men as threats. Never mind real women.

This, it would seem to me that gossip like this could constitute further harassment of SP.

Is this the part you’re thinking of?

NC : Not fair to compromise 200 women to satisfy 1 man.
CM: Dr U identifies as a woman, that's how I think, so that's not what it was.

The Herald summed it up as -

Is it the case that Ms Peggie loses her dignity and access to a single-sex space by having to go elsewhere to change? That is the question asked to Ms Myles by Ms Cunningham.
The barrister also asks whether it is right that a woman has to declare their history of sexual abuse or discomfort at changing in the same facilities as a trans person.
Ms Myles said women should not be forced to disclose their history.
Ms Cunningham, in her final question, asks whether it is fair that around 200 women are asked to make compromises to satisfy one transgender individual.
Ms Myles said it is her opinion that Dr Upton is a woman, so this assessment by the barrister is not correct.
She said everyone should be appropriately accommodated, but it is outwith her remit to suggest how this is done.

But if you are a lawyer trying to argue that SP did not suffer belief discrimination, isn't that dangerously close to demonstrating belief discrimination?

She was chucking out so many unsubstantiated slurs that she might have well added that she has a swastika lunchbox, a Pinochet t shirt and spends her breaks kicking guinea pigs.

It was totally inappropriate and revolting.

They know full well they are men. It is the audacity of women to refuse to play the game that is the issue.

So she wouldn't be able to i.e. use the transcripts as evidence in a grievance against her line managers for spreading malicious gossip?

Polkey deductions apply in unfair dismissal cases where a dismissal is procedurally unfair, but the employer could have dismissed the employee fairly. My understanding is that it only applies in unfair dismissal cases, so doesn't apply here.

Thanks. That makes sense. I don’t know where the idea that is was standard practice cones from but I think there is a desire to give her more credit than she merits. We are desperate I think for someone who didn’t make it worse for SP and who tried to operate in her interests and CM is the nearest thing but I don’t think she was at all bothered by SPs interests. I think she was operating a softly softly approach - ie trying to remedy the clusterfuck — rather than looking out for SP. If she had been she would not have enforced the supervision.

Another "outwith", from the Herald via @AccidentallyWesAnderson . Such a useful word, isn't it?

Correct, so she can't sue them for anything they've said in court. However, if she has enough evidence, she could sue them for things they've said in the hospital. I'm not convinced it would be a good idea for her to do so, though. It would draw more attention to the allegations.

She said quite a lot about the difference between biology and identity.

NC: So if we start with the assumption it was 'hate incident' you meant, DrU says SP asked 'what are your chromosomes'. There's nothing derogatory there, in such a discussion?
CM: Difficult Q to answer. If we are talking scientific fact then chromosomes, but, ppl can identify as they choose.
NC: A previous witness IB said she didn't know if she was male or female, but would guess F. I am going to say that you are sure you are female?
CM: Yes
NC: XX chromosomes
CM: Assume so!
NC: You're not offended by that?
CM: No not personally, it's a scientific Q. And I know about physiologoy and anatomy.
NC: And humans come in two sexes
CM: Yes indeed, but, pople have every right to identify however they like.
NC: But in a medical context, sex is important and easily determined
CM: Well yes if scientific consideration.

I used to think that too, before watching Dr. Upton's testimony.

It was sophistry in my view. She had practiced the obfuscation. She absolutely understood the question was about trans women and she was purposefully misleading in her answer.

I love ‘outwith’. I use it a lot.

I don't know if you're viewing as a remote observer. I am and there are many things that that people reading TT won't know. The transcript is one thing but seeing how the witnesses respond is another.

For example Malone the other day. Stuttering, whispering so her testimony was barely audible at times. Pausing and looking around at the judge and the barristers before answering. As if to say 'what am I supposed to say? Which she did in fact say to the question about if she knew her sex.

Likewise today CM spoke a LOT. Instead of just answering questions it seemed she was very keen to get extra information in there. Lots of seeming very keen to highlight just how much she had challenged her colleagues (but didn't actually do much about it).

I may be way off the mark and she was 💯 genuine but it looked to me like she really wanted to come across as the Uber professional impartial good guy and everyone else is shit.

Which may be the case but I'm not 💯 convinced

Another note is that Boswell today said in his tweet that CM described the colleagues comments as tittle tattle. It was Naomi who said that and CM went on to give some other long-winded answer without confirming whether she thought it was tittle tattle IIRC