NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

Yes. That’s why delay.

Thats really interesting. I’m just using the TT written account but she comes across to me as one of those prefect types Enid Blyton would have written about who were extremely keen to curry favour with the teaching staff by presenting themselves as fair and kind they were to the ‘girls’ whilst in reality just creating an appearance of such.

Or like the in Sense and Sensibility where John promises to financially assist his stepmother and half-sisters. However Fanny, persuades him to break that promise by rationalising it away bit by bit whilst declaring how good and kind they are being.

I think you’re spot on in the idea that she didn’t do much about it. She’s so confident about her authority and her ability to stand up to consultants like KS that I begin to think that in her professional life shes created a narrative about herself which she truly believes — that you have to stand up to these consultants! They like to think they’re God but I know, and you know, that it’s me who is really God.

😂

I’m afraid I’m not at all convinced by her testimony. I think she is clever however and has carefully studied
in preparation which others haven’t.

A slight misunderstanding. Hypothetically:

CM said in the tribunal that (say) ED tolder her that SP had made a racist comment to a doctor. SP complains in the workplace of mistreatment by ED because she made this false allegation to CM. An investigation into what ED did or didn't say is held, and ED says to that investigation "Oooh, I said no such thing! Just you tell that CM to come here and say that."

At which point CM turns up says "oh yes you did say that to me" and ED says "No I never did" and the workplace investigation has to decide who to believe. The evidence in the ET (from CM) no longer comes into it.

Yep, that is close to my memory but I think that there was another pair of questions where she expressed the same sort of position

It struck me as odd at the time as, up to that point, she had come across as quite reasonable and then it became something more like - I understand the GC position but in my interactions and descriptions of transgender people I will treat them exactly as if they were their chosen gender.

She does not see an issue with 200 women having to compromise for one man because what she sees is 201 women

So to me it is reasonable to think that when describing a transman she will treat then precisely as if they were a biological man.

@Totallygripped My experience was that I was being unreasonable. I was under a mental health crisis team and ended up in a massive state after being (by error) visited at home by a man. Just the two of us.

I called and spoke to the male team manager and asked for women only visiting. They said they would try to accommodate but that they couldn't guarantee it and if they had "any concerns" they had a "duty of care" to me.

Unfortunately as well if they send a man round and I refused to let him in, they could very well have called the police for a welfare check.

And no wonder, they are absolutely damning for Fife. Still can't quite believe anyone would be that daft!

KS didn't act on those allegations because she couldn't find anyone to make them. They are unfounded, and appear to be made-up smears to bolster the changing room incident.

Alternatively, she might just be one of those people who genuinely doesn't care? I recall joining my uni caving society as a naive 18 year old, and being very gobsmacked at the girls who were fine with mixed showers to get the mud off after an expedition!

Thank you. Every day is a school day 😀

To be fair CM did try and undo the suspension and refused to be swayed by the witch hunters.

I felt she was mostly telling the truth as she recalled, but was holding a line that was that “scientific sex” did not matter as regards use of facilities designated for females.

Which i thought rather a novel approach. IMHO (lest i be accused of slander or some other such none legal faux pas)

I think she was attempting a tightrope walk, between holding the NHSF line regarding trans rights, and telling the truth.

A possible job keeping exercise.

I am hoping that our MN sleuths are currently searching her sporting activities and if there are any trans members, (of any variety) on her team.

I am suspicious of that claim, but it is irrelevant to the case at hand.

Yes, they seem tacked on for dramatic effect.

Sorry if this has already been covered but for how long was Sandie suspended? And was she under investigation for that whole time?

NC wouldnt object because it is extremely damaging to Fife to have a forthright witness relate, with disapproval, how stakeholers were repeating hearsay gossip. It may get a few headlines in the gutter press (PN, Indie, Guardian, BBC) but will clearly be read as part of the victimisation process by the panel.

Just watching Blackadder for a bit of light relief

Beyond that, does she have the opportunity to ask further questions to the witness tomorrow?

I think today she did not want to interrupt NHS making a mistake, but she’ll definitely attack that line of questioning whether it’s in a redirect or in summation at some point. Having a record that allegations such as SP being homophobic against her own daughter influencing her suspension etc is juicy evidence for NC.

Facking hell
"I've spoken to Louise after you left today she was sad she didn't get to speak to you so you could tell you
herself that she also condemns Sandie's actions and fully supports you too.
She has spoken to Lauren our charge nurse. Along with Esther, they will be meeting Sandie to inform her
that her actions were unacceptable, and make a plan going forward.
Just to summarise our discussion today:
- You have the full support of the consultant and senior nursing team, and you can contact any of
us any time you need to (I have shared some details of the the incident with them, as you gave
me permission to do.
We completed a Datax to officially log the hate incident.
We ensure you will not be on a clinical shift with Sandie until at least after your secondment to
anesthetics.
We will discuss this again with plenty of time before you return to the ED.
I have made 'management' referral OHSAS for you.
You are drafting a formal letter of complaint, which you are having checked by the MPS and then
will send to your line manager. (I will confirm if this should be Melvin or lain Fairbairn).
I have contacted the Equalities Lead, Isla Bumba for further advice regarding transgender policies
and hate incidents.
- You have every right to report this incident to the police should you wish to."

Not a 'without', but my favourite of similar constructions: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Andrew-by-the-Wardrobe

Why would this person need an advocate to preserve basic dignity? My mum was in the hellhole of St George's acute medical unit. Mobile and loo in side ward a few yards away. But when I told HCA she wanted to pee i was told she had a pad so no worries. Just go in that. The consultants were a bit ooh we see your point. But...We are asking a lot about lots of aspects of NHS care because it's frankly all mounting up.

@Largesso Thats really interesting. I’m just using the TT written account but she comes across to me as one of those prefect types Enid Blyton would have written about who were extremely keen to curry favour with the teaching staff by presenting themselves as fair and kind they were to the ‘girls’ whilst in reality just creating an appearance of such.

That's pretty much how she came across to me at times. School perfect.

While she acknowledged that Sandie is an excellent nurse, no concerns, no risk and so on, she still wanted her supervised. Supervised to protect her from the gossips who might start spreading rumours about her being a homophobic racist again. No wonder Sandie objected. It's the shit-stirring gossips that should have been supervised, not sandie.

I would be interested to her Sandies thoughts on CM's testimony. Whether she was as lovely and supportive as she claims. Or whether she's just trying to make herself look good.

that is what I was thinking - but more succintly put - thanks!

they are giving her enough rope

Not sure if the length of suspension but the inverstigation was only concluded a few days ago. The day before the restart of the tribunal

Wow i missed a lot this afternoon.. just wanted to say 200ish women were made to pander to the needs of 1 man turn their whole way of thinking upside down and had to make themselves feel uncomfortable or even if they were comfortable they are clearly naive to this mans need for validation and possible arousal at the idea and the real life action of getting changed in a room full of nurses which lets be honest are often sexualised and seen as something to objectify! Not one person in management thought about this or even asked these women were they okay with a TiM being in their personal space, and the fact that this is true boggles my mind still.. i know this is where we are but it never ceases to amaze me..
Sandie Peggie is honestly one of the strongest women, i mean imagine having the guts to stand up and fight all of this!!
i cant tell whether it went well today but at least CM was open to the possibility that others may not feel the way she does and that is putting people at risk!

witness has been discharged, but as you say, plenty to make hay with

I bet it's Smith. We all know that any kind of smith has to be a man, because smithing is an absolutely masculine occupation.