NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

And now Another memory of holding up notes shouting 3 £1 notes.

I hated my time working as a clerk in the postroom

Only on page three of this thread so apologies if someone else has said this. Seems to me JR could not giver a flying fuck for this case and is just advertising her services to aggrieved TRA’s.

If both respondents have separate representation, they will both get a chance to cross examine each of the plaintiff's witnesses, they will both be able to call their own witnesses, they will be able to cross examine each other's witnesses and they will both make a closing submission.

Goodness. Aside from his mother's thesis, the fact of his parentage shows how privileged he is, and the caste of academics he comes from.

Scotland is notorious for this.

Begins to show why people in the managerial tranches of the NHS were so afraid of him, and willing to dance around and indulge him. He's not just some random trans doctor who turned up.

Sandie didn't stand a chance.

ETA: Mind you, the handmaidens might still have been falling over him. But this just shows that he had even more entitlement than your average TIM.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not.

Evidence going missing in an attempt to thwart legal action isn’t a 2025 phenomenon. Back then, people might accidentally on purpose forget to file something and destroy the evidence or tamper with documents etc. it was not foolproof.

@SlackJawedDisbeliefXY I'm a few pages behind, so it may have already been covered, but one of the things that struck me was today's witness CM/LM having only been at NHSF a few months before this started.

I may be biased, but it suggested to me that she hadn't been subjected to the groupthink of those who trained and then worked at NHSF. (Sandie also strikes me as someone who gets on with her job, and doesn't (have time to) get involved in workforce dynamics.

You are dead right and that is at the heart of the problem. Trans women demand to get changed (in this circumstance) with women as otherwise they are not seen as women. Personally i think there is more to that but anyway.

Sorry, I've checked and it could just have been a secondment. But the longest rotations are for 6 months (could have been 3 or 4, those are more usual), he's already worked for some time with Sandie and if he went to anaesthetics for 4 weeks he'd still have been unlikely to be back in a&e for long.

Once their second year is finished juniors apply for specialty training (and it's hard to get a post, there is a lot of competition) or they take a non training post like becoming a clinical fellow in psychiatry, which is what Upton did.

Who wants the task of posting the KS emails on this thread or its successor at the start of her testimony tomorrow? I have a feeling NC will be referring to them a great deal.

I must I must I must actually do some work tomorrow so will have to catch up with the KS session once it is done. I wanted to say now though that I found particularly disturbing DU's statement that if a female patient requested a female doctor DU would happily rock up. I also want to ask the clinical staff on here whether they think said female patient is in their view being prissy. If my leg is hanging off I might not care. But a "down there" issue, as it's been termed,even as emergency presentation?

What I got from it is that this is a very unfortunate family with regard to professional abuse. 🤔

As is Sandies family after this.

Just caught up on it all, I think I need to go back the last 20 pages of the thread before to properly catch up though.

So witness today was a bit more sensible, but still proved that NHS Fife did not follow correct procedure?

Is it that shit stirring Dr tomorrow? Kate? I'm at work, will have to try and catch some of it at lunch tomorrow. I am predicting a lot of people listening in being enraged at what she comes out with. Women throwing other women under the bus for this evil ideology is one of the worst things about it.

A couple of us said it all right, Banned, but probably about 8 pages in so if you got it by P3, it shows how quick on the uptake you are

A slight variation on what you said was that JR is saying vile things about SP to give ammo to TRAs to use against ST on Reddit. Should I say 'allegedly' after that?

Could someone share the link to the bundle? I've looked online for the tweet but can't spot it. Thank you!

Not the OP but, more than the thwarting legal action, it seems to speak to a general carelessness at Fife about logging incoming documents. Things were still put on Manager's desks 15-20 years ago, but for people in senior roles, they would also be copied, or a top sheet listing enclosures would be copied, and those copies were date stamped and put in a Day File, that gradually moved towards the archive. It meant that a manager coming back from leave could ask where anything in their paper mountain came from and it could be traced.

It was actually really useful in the period before offices went paperless, and a little beyond, because there was a structure that you could mirror in learning how to file electronic documents properly.

I'm really beginning to understand the doctor v nurse dynamic more here.

He comes from a privileged caste, even for doctors. She is just a jobbing, working class nurse.

It begins to explain all these managerial wankers falling over themselves to take his side, a bit more. Fluttering around him, and his privilege.

I’m not defending anyone here, but the university could validly say very exceptional reasons apply here regardless of the family ties. There has been a media storm around this employment tribunal, it is possible large volumes of people are seeking access due to the parentage of people involved.

If it’s a recent restriction, chances are the content is archived/cached online.

Yes but this is a situation where the employer doesn’t want these things to be documented. Remember at this point in time, the NHS was worried about an employment tribunal.

Anything detrimental to them, hide or don’t put in an email.

Anything beneficial to them, put in emails.

At this stage the NHS was actively controlling the paper trail.

In criminal cases you would be right. Reporting that somebody else said something happened would be classed as hearsay and would not be permitted. However, hearsay evidence is allowed in civil cases such as this.

Didn't Upton say something like, when he was in the women's changing room, he tried not to look like he was watching. Ick! <shudder>

Sort of caught up from this afternoon, thanks all, seems I missed loads.

Quick question for anyone who doesn't mind helping me; I'm interested to know CM/LM's background, ie I know her job is some kind of Service Manager but would she be a Dr, nurse or something else? Just interested and sorry I expect this has been explained elsewhere but, as you all know, there's quite a lot to get through!

Which is why big organisations set up protocols in an attempt to minimise that. I get no sense of anyone (even today's witness, by far the best and most professional of them so far) in NHSF knowing that proper procedures are a thing.

Someone asked how old Kate Searle is . She graduated from university of Edinburgh in 2004, so we can made a guess that she was born about 1980. Of course some people graduate with an MbChB a little older , say late 20 s or early 30s. But my best guess is that she is now about mid 40s.

So old enough and senior enough ( she is a trainer so has a leadership role) to know that sending smear emails is not just unwise, it’s a breach of her professional standards

https://www.gmc-uk.org/professional-standards/the-professional-standards/good-medical-practice

Particularly these

• treating colleagues with respect and help to create an environment that is compassionate, supportive and fair

• acting with honesty and integrity and being open if things go wrong

More details here

https://www.gmc-uk.org/professional-standards/the-professional-standards/good-medical-practice/domain-3-colleagues-culture-and-safety

@prh47bridge the question was about the NHS datix system for reporting incidents. You are not supposed to report hearsay,