Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

1000 replies

nauticant · 21/07/2025 14:55

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
DeanElderberry · 21/07/2025 18:08

Incoming communications also got date stamped. Stuff in the post room was always opened in the presence of two people (in case there was money, mostly). NHSF is not managing its staff or its procedures properly: 'it turned up on my desk, no one else saw it, and I lost it' seems excessively casual in a situation that has ended up with a sitting judge.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 18:09

DeanElderberry · 21/07/2025 18:08

Incoming communications also got date stamped. Stuff in the post room was always opened in the presence of two people (in case there was money, mostly). NHSF is not managing its staff or its procedures properly: 'it turned up on my desk, no one else saw it, and I lost it' seems excessively casual in a situation that has ended up with a sitting judge.

Entirely implausible for someone who is also professing to a professional approach.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 21/07/2025 18:11

NImumconfused · 21/07/2025 16:35

To me, that doesn't entirely chime with the reporting we've been following here this afternoon - it paints LM in a much worse light.

Yes. I think it's a nasty framing, assuming the worst motives for everything LM did in her professional role and said as a witness. I was disappointed in her incoherent thinking about gender identity, but I'm not sure I would have been any better 4 years ago before I started thinking for myself. If LM had done as she was told, SP would have remained suspended, and I think LM deserves credit for not following the party line, and for being open and honest about her colleagues, when many would have tried to defend them via wishy-washy replies.

I think her straightforward answers were unfortunate in reply to JR's nasty questions, but at least they showed up how nasty the questions were, and were revealing of the culture in the organisation.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 18:12

Off topic for today but has anyone been able to track down a copy of Dr Upton's mother's doctoral thesis. It was completed 2018 in the name Caroline Applegath, with the title

Remembering, reclaiming, re-remembering: an autoethnographic exploration of professional abuse

https://era.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/31293?show=full

The document is embargoed by University of Edinburgh until 31/12/2100. That seems an astonishing embargo. I haven't made a typo.

The info provided on Edinburgh library webpages says "Extended embargoes beyond five years will not normally be approved unless there are very exceptional reasons."

The Director of Library & University Collections at The University of Edinburgh is Dr Jeremy Upton, Dr Beth Upton's father.😳

Remembering, reclaiming, re-remembering: an autoethnographic exploration of professional abuse

https://era.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/31293?show=full

KTheGrey · 21/07/2025 18:12

minsmum · 21/07/2025 18:02

Can I ask a stupid question. LM stated that she had been informed of patient issues and said that the person who told her about them would be in trouble for not reporting them. Should she not have reported them herself.

I think you can only report what you yourself have experienced or witnessed. Reporting that somebody else said something has happened is too remote.

Presumably the same is true of reporting it as slander - if no official complaint then no slander has occurred.

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 18:13

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 18:12

Off topic for today but has anyone been able to track down a copy of Dr Upton's mother's doctoral thesis. It was completed 2018 in the name Caroline Applegath, with the title

Remembering, reclaiming, re-remembering: an autoethnographic exploration of professional abuse

https://era.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/31293?show=full

The document is embargoed by University of Edinburgh until 31/12/2100. That seems an astonishing embargo. I haven't made a typo.

The info provided on Edinburgh library webpages says "Extended embargoes beyond five years will not normally be approved unless there are very exceptional reasons."

The Director of Library & University Collections at The University of Edinburgh is Dr Jeremy Upton, Dr Beth Upton's father.😳

Edited

It it's about abuse, maybe to protect privacy.

Flashout · 21/07/2025 18:14

Charabanc · 21/07/2025 18:03

They all knew what a MFU (monumental fuck up) it was, which is why they hid it from the initial hearing.

Luckily NC is a lot cleverer than them, and sniffed it out.

How was it sniffed out? Via SAR?

prh47bridge · 21/07/2025 18:15

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:28

She doesn't play rugby with transwomen though. She was very specific about saying trans players. Transwomen can't play contact rugby in women's teams. I think they can in touch rugby but whichever CM plays she said, in response to changing with me, that she changes with trans players. It undermined her credibility even more to me as she had clearly practiced that obfuscation. No one has a problem with trans men changing in f cr.

She may play rugby with transwomen provided it is one of the non-contact forms of the sport such as touch rugby.

Charabanc · 21/07/2025 18:16

BeLemonNow · 21/07/2025 17:26

I thought she said it was probably her PA who left that document on her desk ahead of the meeting, whose presumably is responsible for monitoring emails and arranging meeting etc.

It may well have just been a print of any relevant emails that she has been sent and the Datix incident which is why it hasn't turned up.

I was initially surprised she didn't request a formal written briefing ahead of the review. It's her head on the line if Sandie was a risk.

However the bollocks the managers were sprouting I can also see why she preferred to actually meet Sandie...

No. She said it appeared, printed out, on her desk, with a Post It note attached.

Obvs if it had been a printed out email, there would be an electronic trail.

rebmacesrevda · 21/07/2025 18:16

Largesso · 21/07/2025 18:07

It seems odd that when KS offered nothing in reply LM had nothing further to add. I also struggle to believe KS would have had nothing to say to that point. We shall, we hope, find out tomorrow.

My interpretation of it was CLM politely calling bullshit on KS's rumours, and KS's silence an acceptance of that.

prh47bridge · 21/07/2025 18:16

Tweakie123 · 21/07/2025 16:29

Yes possibly! I have complained about the bbc headline re Nurse confronts trans doctor in an 'unacceptable manner', highlighting that the article omits the admission by NHS Fife that there was 'no acceptable way' for Sandy to raise concerns. They've basically brushed off my complaint. I will be complaining further to the ECU.

You need to complain to Ofcom.

anyolddinosaur · 21/07/2025 18:18

KTheGrey · 21/07/2025 18:12

I think you can only report what you yourself have experienced or witnessed. Reporting that somebody else said something has happened is too remote.

Presumably the same is true of reporting it as slander - if no official complaint then no slander has occurred.

First part probably true, because otherwise you face being sued for defamation. Most people dont sue because it's expensive but it's up to the person who defamed someone to show that either it was true, honest opinion or a privileged comment. Sandie potentially could sue.

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2025 18:18

So Sandie got suspended.

However we are seeing several other people have numerous reasons why they should have been suspended yet weren't.

Genuinely this should be something that's reflected on.

Those alone emails were not ok on for three or four reasons.

KTheGrey · 21/07/2025 18:18

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 18:12

Off topic for today but has anyone been able to track down a copy of Dr Upton's mother's doctoral thesis. It was completed 2018 in the name Caroline Applegath, with the title

Remembering, reclaiming, re-remembering: an autoethnographic exploration of professional abuse

https://era.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/31293?show=full

The document is embargoed by University of Edinburgh until 31/12/2100. That seems an astonishing embargo. I haven't made a typo.

The info provided on Edinburgh library webpages says "Extended embargoes beyond five years will not normally be approved unless there are very exceptional reasons."

The Director of Library & University Collections at The University of Edinburgh is Dr Jeremy Upton, Dr Beth Upton's father.😳

Edited

Auto ethnography is using personal experience as data and connecting it to broader cultural trends or phenomena. So we can reasonably infer that Dr Caroline Applegarth has a story of professional abuse in her background, and that there may be others involved who are still living.

Of course by 2100 any practical usefulness will be greatly reduced. Perhaps it should be published with the names changed to protect those involved - I don’t see much point to research or doctoral theses that can’t be read.

wantmorenow · 21/07/2025 18:19

Harassedevictee · 21/07/2025 16:48

I got a similar response from the BBC.

and me 😡

Talkinpeace · 21/07/2025 18:21

BBC reporting is very surreal
TT is more reliable IMHO

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 21/07/2025 18:21

Waves
NebulousDogWhistleIsReality checking in to... wait, hang on! I've missed an entire thread?! 😱

Thanks @ickky for the TT thread readers! Off to speed read!

CM sounds about the most sensible one of the lot on NHS Fife's side so far, but ffs it sounds like everyone else had a real vendetta towards SP!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 18:22

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 18:13

It it's about abuse, maybe to protect privacy.

I don't think that is a reason not to put a piece of academic research into the public domain. Necessarily, abuse features quite a lot in psychology theses.

And this was autoethnographical which is "a qualitative research method where researchers use their personal experiences to understand cultural phenomena".

If the intention from the outset was never to publish then its unlikely the research propsal would be approved, because a permanently embargoed thesis can't add to the body of knowledge.

Boiledbeetle · 21/07/2025 18:24

Butchyrestingface · 21/07/2025 18:01

India Willoughby perfectly articulates why people like India and Beth will continue to use women's facilities regardless of the SC ruling and the outcome of this (or any other) tribunal. In their minds, they ARE biological women.

I'm finding the other tweet with the video of him womaning better than actual women, out with friends for coffee as the reflection shows empty seats next to him rather horrifying.

India is the sort of man who gives all men who say they are a women a bad name.

prh47bridge · 21/07/2025 18:26

FannyCann · 21/07/2025 16:46

I should have clarified, I meant that I'm a bit surprised at publishing it ahead of Kate Searle being in the witness box. It's brilliant that it's out there for us all to see, but wouldn't it have been better for KS to be heading into the witness box relatively unaware of what a massive balls up she made? If nothing else it has slightly stolen Naomi's thunder, the moment of the big reveal when KS is on the spot in the witness box.
If she does call in sick tomorrow morning I would hazard a guess the publication of that email might be a contributory factor.

Anyway, like I said, it hardly matters. Her goose is well and truly cooked.

KS should already know the email is in the bundle. There should never be a big reveal in a tribunal case. It doesn't work like that. You can't pull some piece of evidence out of the hat that the other side didn't know about.

I remember watching the last two episodes of Silk which featured a murder trial, and getting really annoyed at the way the prosecution was repeatedly pulling rabbits out of a hat without any complaint from the defence, let alone a request for time to consider this new evidence and have it examined by defence experts. But then, two of the prosecution witnesses were allowed to launch personal attacks on the defence barrister in a way which, had it happened in a real court, should have resulted in the judge telling the jury to ignore their evidence and considering sending them down for contempt.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 18:26

NoBinturongsHereMate · 21/07/2025 17:50

The emails do seem to clear up the shifts question.

At the time of the emails Upton had 4 shifts left before moving to anaesthetics, but that move was a secondment not a permanent move. So he therefore presumably returned to the A&E dept afterwards. Hence ongoing possibility of shift overlap once SP's suspension ended.

Anaesthetics was a 4 week secondment.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/07/2025 18:27

prh47bridge · 21/07/2025 18:15

She may play rugby with transwomen provided it is one of the non-contact forms of the sport such as touch rugby.

CM made it clear that she is a believer

She would consider playing with a transman (i.e. a biological woman who thinks they are a man) to be playing with a man.

In her answer she only uses the word trans so she could well be describing changing with a transman and would likely consider this a reasonable equivalent to SP having to change in front of an actual man

Boiledbeetle · 21/07/2025 18:29

DeanElderberry · 21/07/2025 17:57

In the olden days communications coming in to someone in that role would have had to be listed in the day book, numbered, and filed. In any place interacting with a potentially litigious public, to say nothing of staff and unions, that was a core responsibility. Carried out every day without fail. Big manilla folders were kept related to any issue that started to grow beyond a one-off. Eventually it got carried away to the archives, where one day it will make future historians happy.

What happens now in this brave paperless new world?

Oh my god! I've just had flashbacks to having to log all incoming and outgoing post in the book.

I'd forgotten that from the olden days of no computers and one fax machine in the whole building, if you were lucky.

prh47bridge · 21/07/2025 18:29

prh47bridge · 21/07/2025 18:16

You need to complain to Ofcom.

Apologies - you need to complete the BBC's complaints process then go to Ofcom.

BigFatBully · 21/07/2025 18:30

Surely anyone working in healthcare knows that biological sex cannot be changed and therefore, if you are male, you must not use female, and if you are female, you must not use male. I'm told that only 1% of the population identify as trans. So, the hospital should find a little room where people who are trans can get changed alone. Getting changed after all, isn't a social thing. I'd question the motives of anyone who is so desperate to undress around others.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread