NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

The racism allegations in themselves are horrible. But to try to create a rift in SP’s relationship with her daughter is another level. In court cases, unless an incident was directly witnessed, somebody normally shouts ‘objection! Hearsay’ or something similar. Why aren’t tribunals run along the same lines? Is it because there’s no jury and the judge is meant to be able to make his own mind up?

The Courier showing us what a bargain our £1 subs were!

Beth Upton’s boss accused Sandie Peggie of racist remark after NHS Fife nurse’s suspension lifted
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5293954/sandie-peggie-racist-claim-tribunal/

I guess there's an outside chance it might be sitting in the library on the shelves, or more likely in the office of the supervisors, if anyone is around to check in Edinburgh . "In my review of the literature I demonstrate the challenges of researching and documenting the direct experiences of women who have been sexually exploited by male professionals. "

If that’s the case why did Searle submit the original Xmas Eve incident Datix and not Upton? Presumably that’s how a specific reference to Isla Bryson / a rapist crept in when SP had only referenced the situation in women’s prisons? BU rowed back on that detail I think?

You've watched too many dramas where the procedure is largely drawn from American practice, even when dealing with British trials. No-one ever shouts "objection" in a UK court. They would say something like, "Sorry to interrupt, but..." or "My learned friend is inviting the witness to speculate" or similar.

Hearsay evidence is allowed in civil cases but is usually inadmissible in criminal cases. This, of course, is a civil case.

Apologies. That's what I get for skim reading as I try to catch up!

Why isn't Margaret Gribbon doing any questioning (or did she and I missed it?)

If JR can bring SP's child into it, then we can bring DU's parents into it.

Do you think they sit together on the plane up and down on a Monday and Friday? Possibly talk about horses and make-up?

@guinnessguzzler She's on LinkedIn and quite active there:

(hmm when I post this I keep getting "an unexpected error occurred" so I'm going to try without the link, but if you go to linked in, search charlotte myles, and end up with a URL ending charlotte-myles-1793a2a0 you've found her!)

Comes over as a good egg. In short, no, not a medic, has a time as HCA in her CV and has done a bunch of things since.

I don't like the look of things that could cause MNHQ to intervene on this thread. MNHQ will not be intervening against JR in the hearing room. (Athough that would be entertaining to see.)

I mean, in my experience the people in management positions are more savvy than you give them credit for. Like being aware of what the proper procedures are… and how to get away with violating them! Hence why you get people hesitant to put things in writing.

In this case, the paper note that went missing would likely have been damning against the NHS in a tribunal setting. Hence why it always was a paper note placed on a desk, as opposed to documented comms in an email…

What I’m trying to say is it was a strategic move from the outset. The tribunal/you blaming the note going missing on sloppy record keeping is likely more favourable to the NHS than anyone seeing the contents of that note.

The BBC headline might be better but the content is pretty skewed and reports allegations that SP had been involved in “racist incidents” and also that she supported Trump (ffs).

Given that the article does however also report CM’s response to the lack of reporting it would be more accurate if it said “Tribunal hears Fife’s reporting systems disregarded by senior staff in favour of spreading hearsay.”

She was "helping" Upton as I think he claimed he hadnt done one before. Technically I think Upton would have had to actually submit it.

Because she's a solicitor, not a barrister.

interesting about his mum's thesis. Very sad that she has her own experience of abuse (which seems to be the case). This whole thing is likely to be hard for her, even if thats just on an intellectual level i.e the behaviour of her child towards a woman who has also survived abuse but feeling the need to align herself with her child against (?but maybe not) the woman.
It likes a plot from a literary novel, examining modern morays (whatever moray means but seems suitably Scottish)

I would think only one of those parties is in a position to petition for an end to access for public observers and services like TT.

She's a solicitor, not someone in training as a barrister, right? I assume she's around, but it's Charlotte Elves who is next to Naomi Cunningham and doing the odd bit of cross examination.

(Incidentally, though when she did that bit of cross so well on Friday we all assumed it was planned as part of her development, I did wonder afterwards whether Naomi had had a headsup about the Fife statement and was busy emailing about it!)

Aah, thanks very much, that's quite interesting. Not really sure why I wanted to know, although as someone else said, it sounds like she was relatively new to Fife and I wonder if that meant she wasn't part of their culture of incompetence.

Clinical person here. No, absolutely not prissy. Often have female patients asking for female staff for intimate exams, or even just consultations about painful periods or menopause symptoms. Would also not be prissy in an emergency situation, though may be more tricky to find the staff - but patient would not be judged, and perhaps offered a female chaperone if no female lead available. If it was a life-threatening haemorrhage, perhaps a special case, but resus situations would rarely be dealt with by just one clinician anyway.

I had one pt who booked in with me as he thought (from my surnane) that I would be male and it was an intimate issue. I offered him another appt with a male Dr. No judgement (except to wonder what exactly about my surname was so male!!).

I agree thay DUs view that he is a 'female dr' is deluded and dangerous. He has drunk from the fountain if 'I take E, I am female' (biochemically or somesuch). I cannot fathom how a Dr can think this.

Wingsoverscotland tweet re CM https://x.com/WingsScotland/status/1947241829969121339

I'm a bit puzzled by your reply. I didn't bring DU's parentage into this thread?

Also, these threads will have been creating the most income for MN over the past few weeks. MN will definitely not wanting to be shutting them down. Or curtailing them too much.

Have so many questions, from the trivial to the highly relevant.

Did someone at the university need to make a connection between the Applegarth paper and Beth Upton, leading to the embargo? Or could a high frequency of people asking for it alert them?

What was the incident about trying to damage the relationship between Sandie and her daughter?

When I catch up, am I going to be interested and entertained or infuriated? Just wondering whether I can cope! It’s been a trying day!

I am not sure I completely agree. Junior doctors on rotation are NOT high in the respect pecking order, even privileged white male ones (i'm in England, not scotland but don't imgine the culture is that different). Well-regarded nurses wield kudos. I think the dynamic was much more about fear of being seen as transphobic, and exploiting this perfect opportunity to demonstrate just how right-on they all were.

She is a solicitor. She would only ask questions if SP didn't have a barrister to represent her.