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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/07/2025 21:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

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OP posts:
rebmacesrevda · 21/07/2025 09:31

FingleGlen · 21/07/2025 09:26

I once had a male GP who would say "down there" in a slightly whispered voice. It used to make me properly laugh!

I know a military GP who fears gynaecology more than he fears the battlefield!

ickky · 21/07/2025 09:31

SidewaysOtter · 21/07/2025 09:24

Come on in, there’s room for everyone!

<hands round Tunnocks> Wafer or teacake?

Don't you mean and?

Jitrenka · 21/07/2025 09:31

GrumpyUngulate · 21/07/2025 09:22

Any decent man would instantly understand a woman's need for privacy in that situation. I'd say it's almost the perfect test to detect the perverts & predators. 99% of us would feel massively awkward, we would mumble apologies and GTFO. Once outside the room we'd find a woman colleague and murmer "Sandie might need some help in the loo, she's had a bit of an accident down there", and we would never speak of it again.

It's very striking that Dr Uptonogood was either unable or unwilling to prioritise Sandie's feelings & needs, but instead saw this as the ultimate boss-level opportunity to validate his own purported womanhood. Not particularly unique either - a common troon trope is to carry tampons everywhere, actively hoping for a situation like this.

I never considered it from this angle before, i mean one of my first thoughts on my way down this rabbit hole is that its so obvious men do not think like women every time you see a TiM get angry they go all factory default settings and get aggressive women just dont think like that but even as a man why didnt he just leave when it was obvious she wanted privacy even if she was rude you give her privacy and hopefully she apologises for being rude afterwards, you dont send your whole organisation to defend your not leaving the room and put this woman through hell!!

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 21/07/2025 09:33

I think we need sausage eggs, boiled eggs, tomatoes - lots of round things so that we can practice eye-swivels. (Just to piss Tim Roca - Labour MP who doesn’t like females)

FingleGlen · 21/07/2025 09:34

Once, very long ago, I worked in a large clinical department, most of the nurses were women and a lot of the doctors were men.

I felt really unwell as the shift progressed but as I was in charge of an area I ploughed on (as nurses do all the time) to ensure patients were cared for and other more junior staff were getting breaks etc. I felt worse and worse, had lower abdominal pain and a general sense of things not being right. Then I started bleeding. Heavily.

I was pregnant but didn't know it, and had a miscarriage with complications. Very publicly, at work.

It was a very long time ago now, but even now thinking about it I feel emotional at the level of care I received from colleagues. The male members of staff melted away, the female staff stepped up. I was shielded, my privacy and tattered dignity paramount.

Finding out I was pregnant and not pregnant all at the same time, bleeding all through my uniform, gasping due to pain and shock and yet every other person there did what they could to make it less public, less humiliating, less upsetting.

Nobody every discussed it, brought it up or mentioned it to me in the years we worked together after that. My confidentiality was protected.

Just what you'd hope and expect from professional, trained health care staff.

Waitwhat23 · 21/07/2025 09:34

BezMills · 21/07/2025 09:27

Teacake cheers,

noo that's whit a guid neebor looks like, ken? When the guid biscuits get put oot, ye ken their gled tae see ye.

An if they're bammers, it's no the guid biscuits but the Rich Teas and the saft shortbreed.

Peregrina · 21/07/2025 09:35

even as a man why didnt he just leave when it was obvious she wanted privacy

Because he wants validation "as a woman". In short his behaviour is that more of a pervert or sex pest than someone deeply unhappy with their physical body.

inkymoose · 21/07/2025 09:35

ErrolTheDragon · 21/07/2025 09:00

Theres a better story from Scotland here, do read the last few paragraphs - how things should be done and why it matters.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377133-heres-an-inspirational-woman?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Thank you Errol! Inspiring story, I love Anna's attitude and her fortitude.

Jitrenka · 21/07/2025 09:36

You all me wanna go get biscuits 😋

Futurehappiness · 21/07/2025 09:36

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 21/07/2025 09:33

I think we need sausage eggs, boiled eggs, tomatoes - lots of round things so that we can practice eye-swivels. (Just to piss Tim Roca - Labour MP who doesn’t like females)

When I read this about 'eye swivelling' I rolled my eyes so much my eyeballs nearly gave me concussion.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 21/07/2025 09:38

FingleGlen · 21/07/2025 09:34

Once, very long ago, I worked in a large clinical department, most of the nurses were women and a lot of the doctors were men.

I felt really unwell as the shift progressed but as I was in charge of an area I ploughed on (as nurses do all the time) to ensure patients were cared for and other more junior staff were getting breaks etc. I felt worse and worse, had lower abdominal pain and a general sense of things not being right. Then I started bleeding. Heavily.

I was pregnant but didn't know it, and had a miscarriage with complications. Very publicly, at work.

It was a very long time ago now, but even now thinking about it I feel emotional at the level of care I received from colleagues. The male members of staff melted away, the female staff stepped up. I was shielded, my privacy and tattered dignity paramount.

Finding out I was pregnant and not pregnant all at the same time, bleeding all through my uniform, gasping due to pain and shock and yet every other person there did what they could to make it less public, less humiliating, less upsetting.

Nobody every discussed it, brought it up or mentioned it to me in the years we worked together after that. My confidentiality was protected.

Just what you'd hope and expect from professional, trained health care staff.

That’s awful! At least some of the nurses helped you.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 21/07/2025 09:41

Peregrina · 21/07/2025 09:35

even as a man why didnt he just leave when it was obvious she wanted privacy

Because he wants validation "as a woman". In short his behaviour is that more of a pervert or sex pest than someone deeply unhappy with their physical body.

NC: “So this is really aboot makin' trans folk feel valid, aye?”
IB: “Naw naw, it's no aboot feelin’s.”
NC: “Right, so why can’t they just use a third space then?”
IB: “Well... ah've no asked them how they’d feel aboot that.”

Chrysanthemum5 · 21/07/2025 09:41

Aye @BezMills we a' like a good neibur but no a drouthy one ye ken

Tea cake for me please

123ZYX · 21/07/2025 09:43

For those wanting to read Herald articles without subscribing, see if your library gives you access to Press Reader. I can get access for free through my local library and get access to the majority of papers for free including the Herald.

MagicSexEssence · 21/07/2025 09:43

I really do think we've "won" the terf wars.

BezMills · 21/07/2025 09:44

Waitwhat23 · 21/07/2025 09:34

An if they're bammers, it's no the guid biscuits but the Rich Teas and the saft shortbreed.

fuckin sure ain!

FingleGlen · 21/07/2025 09:45

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 21/07/2025 09:38

That’s awful! At least some of the nurses helped you.

It was awful but actually very much mitigated by the care and consideration I received.

Feels like a different life as I've had healthy pregnancies since and now own a house of teens!

I still know some of those staff though and they've still never mentioned it and the state I was in.

Similarly, I had a very quick labour once. No sooner had I put the phone down to the triage midwife telling me to take some paracetamol and try to sleep overnight, did I start to push and DH had to call 999.

The male paramedics who arrived recognised me from working together, and when I demanded (v much in transition) they stayed out for the room, they did. Reassured me through an open door with their backs turned that they were there and ready to help as required. When they came in to admire DC and check we were ok, we agreed we would never ever speak of what they had seen if we worked together again. That deal has been tested and held.

So many stories like this, of kind decent skilled men who acknowledge and understand what women need when vulnerable.

Then there's this one...

KittyWilkinson · 21/07/2025 09:45

Looking at JKR's response to IW.
Willoughby's just not the full shilling at all. A permanent state of "look at me JKR" attention seeking hate.
I don't think I've ever seen a sensible comment from him in all the years he's been foaming at the mouth.

CatKings · 21/07/2025 09:46

If I was in a changing room with another woman and she said ‘I need some privacy’ I’d just go, I wouldn’t question her or argue it was my changing room. I’d assume she needed it and get out fast.
im guessing this wouldn’t occur to Dr Upton.

Jitrenka · 21/07/2025 09:46

MagicSexEssence · 21/07/2025 09:43

I really do think we've "won" the terf wars.

I wish i was as enthusiastic but i dont think these men are gonna give up that easy! Plus activists need something to fight for!!

Needspaceforlego · 21/07/2025 09:47

MagicSexEssence · 21/07/2025 09:43

I really do think we've "won" the terf wars.

I'll believe that when the BBC changes it tune.
BBC New Scotland bit of the website I had to go looking for Sandies story but found Glasgow Pride March without any bother.

When the BBC has a grip that when we'll have won.

rebmacesrevda · 21/07/2025 09:48

Needspaceforlego · 21/07/2025 09:47

I'll believe that when the BBC changes it tune.
BBC New Scotland bit of the website I had to go looking for Sandies story but found Glasgow Pride March without any bother.

When the BBC has a grip that when we'll have won.

When BBC eventually gets a grip, they'll pretend they were GC all along!

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 09:49

FingleGlen · 21/07/2025 09:45

It was awful but actually very much mitigated by the care and consideration I received.

Feels like a different life as I've had healthy pregnancies since and now own a house of teens!

I still know some of those staff though and they've still never mentioned it and the state I was in.

Similarly, I had a very quick labour once. No sooner had I put the phone down to the triage midwife telling me to take some paracetamol and try to sleep overnight, did I start to push and DH had to call 999.

The male paramedics who arrived recognised me from working together, and when I demanded (v much in transition) they stayed out for the room, they did. Reassured me through an open door with their backs turned that they were there and ready to help as required. When they came in to admire DC and check we were ok, we agreed we would never ever speak of what they had seen if we worked together again. That deal has been tested and held.

So many stories like this, of kind decent skilled men who acknowledge and understand what women need when vulnerable.

Then there's this one...

Edited

Will be very interesting to hear Kate Searle's explanation of why she jumped straight to the assumption that SP's desire for privacy was motivated by transphobia.

MagicSexEssence · 21/07/2025 09:50

Jitrenka · 21/07/2025 09:46

I wish i was as enthusiastic but i dont think these men are gonna give up that easy! Plus activists need something to fight for!!

They're not going to give up, sure. It's a can of worms that has been opened and can't be shut easily. But now they've got to do it properly like women did, building themselves up slowly with small wins and turning the tide of public opinion. And I don't think they're capable of doing that.

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