NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

Me too. It’s a 10 o’clock start tommorrow 🤣🤣🤣.

There is no possibility of being getting up to Dundee. But I really want to show support. By carrying a placard saying
I KNOW MY SEX.

I doubt this will be seen but thank you to whoever recommended Herland. Im really enjoying it.

Remember that was the 'locker room' that the nurses used their official 'changing room' was on a different floor.

Who knows what the architect was thinking, but remember hospitals are forever doing work, changing things around so it might not be how the original architect had designed it.

Agree. These are the approved planning drawings. Internal arrangements however are not part of planning approval requirements. That’s a building regs thing for fire escape, safety, drainage etc. so it could have changed. In my experience though they rarely do once they’ve got this far and given how much money it takes to get there. Victoria was designed by BDP in 2009, not an inexperienced Practice. But we provide what we are told to provide so NHS Fife will have provided room schedules to work from.

Theres every possibility the room names could have switched around However….Seeing how they treat their female staff somehow I doubt they were given more space just because they asked for it.

I must go to bed too but wanted to say Upton was shown a photograph of the inside of the changing room during his evidence. He was asked to describe where he stood in relation to Sandie.

This is the relevant bit from TT.

NC Re Christmas eve. Your email to AG as part of IX. You said had already changed ready to go home and washing hands. [they look at photos] Apart from personal possessions, this is how CR was on Xmas eve.
DU y
NC Handbasins nearest toilet cubicles
DU y
NC between toilets/basins and door there are the lockers.
DU y
NC You say you walked around SP to get your bag after washed your hands.
DU y
NC SP didn't block your path
DU N
NC Then you were nearer the door than she was.
DU y

So there are toilet(s?) and basins at the far end of the room with the lockers between them and the door.

With all the attention this room is getting, there should soon be a rainbow plaque on the wall...

Locker Room r.e. Peggie v NHS Fife 2025
"Appropriate motto here"

Sorry Nauticant I am an insomniac!

R.e. locker Room I thought there was mention of separate cubicles some changed in? Although that might have meant the loo yuck.

There was mention of a curtained space. So with a WC, Whb and a curtained space plus lockers with DrU having to walk right past Sandie in a very small space it really is starting to sound even grimmer.

I’m thinking Blue Plaque. Just for Sandie.

Nurse Sandie Peggie

Battled for women’s safety and dignity and Won

Changed here

like this one below

I was just thinking about Jeremy Corbyn (no, really! 😀). He was so proud of his jape to put that plaque up to Emily Wilding Davison with his hero, Tony Benn. But swallowed the kool-aid, like the vast majority of the Left. Can he he not reflect on what he was doing that day?

I put smiley faces where I first thought CRs were. Added a puzzle piece to where the f locker room is on architect plans. edit: oh no I am not allowed to add pics it seems they disappear if I do?

Was wondering about those smiley faces. Thought I was going loony. You could be right about those being the rooms. Still small 🤨

Just pay £1 to them for a 3 month sub!

The Courier coverage really has been excellent. The Times has been all over this wider topic from the very start, led by Janice Turner. The Herakd is also playing its part, more so recently.

Times articles today alone
Gender-critical activists branded ‘swivel-eyed’ by Labour MP

https://www.thetimes.com/article/5d616e94-0f1f-4f64-a674-34ed29ee9a2e?shareToken=4ec92f4403db16b2763722079bec9afc

Ministers ‘delaying’ implementing gender ruling till after election

https://www.thetimes.com/article/c42b9475-4e9a-4d01-8c44-7b4196e0b40e?shareToken=32caeaa5f92775418f4ef851b13e97d8

Here's Janice Turner (see the post time-stamped 28/01/2016 09:50) at the beginning of 2016 speaking out about gender identity ideology:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2558163-Continuation-thread-re-IOC-trans-policy-and-related-trans-issues?reply=58940103

This is bound to be exploited by medal-hungry male athletes in unscrupulous nations. The Iranian women’s football team already contains eight trans-females. And will women competitors such as boxers be safe? Fallon Fox (a former male US soldier) pulverised her opponent in a mixed martial arts contest to a degree never seen in the women’s sport.

Nor am I convinced this will help the trans-gender cause since an Olympic women’s event won by a strapping former man will provoke a mocking global backlash. But even questioning this risks the fury of the vociferous trans lobby. Not a single sportswoman has yet dared to say the obvious: this is unfair.

She's been at this for about a decade. And where she led, (most of) the rest at The Times followed.

I've worked in several hospitals and the changing rooms have been grim in all of them. If it's an area where scrubs are used, then there's normally racks of scrubs in different sizes to accommodate. Often spare pillows and random bits of equipment are shoved on top of lockers. There is never enough space for everyone because nobody thought about the fact that the incoming shift has to store their belongings before the outgoing shift collects theirs.

Also, if cross words are had, they are less likely to be witnessed because the room is locked, so if someone comes in from the outside, they have to swipe a card or enter a key code to get in, so they won't just 'walk in' on a confrontation.

I was discussing this with my 17 year and she innocently said "Why did it even have to become a serious issue? If someone says 'I'd be more comfortable if you left the changing room while I changed', why wouldn't you just say 'Ok' and leave?"

That's the thing isn't it @Lougle

If my DH was somewhere, his own individual office for example, and was asked by a female to leave to give her some space and privacy due to her need to sort out a period disaster. He would up and leave pronto.

Any woman I know and have worked with, when faced with SP in the changing room that evening would have asked if she had everything she needed. Offered to fetch clean scrubs or wipes or whatever and then left her alone.

It's only someone working to a very odd agenda which would stand there and pick holes in the request for privacy.

@BeaTwix I realised that when I saw a picture of her leaving the tribunal. I'm glad your hospital operates a sensible policy. NHS Fife have shown repeatedly they are not sensible. Kate Searle felt she could email 20+ consultants and tell them what to think about an incident none of them observed. That's either the action of a true believer or someone who believes they are in a position of power over other consultants - or both.

Upton was at the end of his shift in a&e, you'd expect him to know which consultant was on that night.

Glad I have today off, then I have a chance of keeping up! Working the rest of the week, so no hope then. I wonder if KC will reference the omnishambles of the NHSF press release?

The press release was a PR disaster as well as possibly causing them legal problems. But unless Naomi wants to go for contempt of court I would have thought it best to move on quickly. She needs to get the other things NHS Fife did out there.

I'm going to be busy this week which is a pain, but should be able to pay attention to closing arguments anyway. They did say they'd put off the first witness today till 11 (and the judge mentioned that if that wasn't long enough, they could phone the witness and put them off longer) so were certainly expecting to address the omnishambles statement. I think one of the NHS Fife comments said that they hoped their revision to the statement would allow the tribunal to stick to the original timetable though. Hard to say whether that was just optimism or whether something has been negotiated. It does seem possible that it was the latter and they'll just crack on.

Yes, the win for NC to go for is to have made clear that that NHSF are continuing to fuck around and have no respect either for the Tribunal or the clalmant and leave it there.

JR was right in one respect: what order does NC want the Tribunal to make? And I don't think there is one beyond having the judge to wag his finger at NHSF and say "don't be an arse".

100%. If another woman asked me to give her space to deal with this I would do so without question. Anyone with an ounce of sensitivity (m or f) would do the same.

The worst thing about this case is that it was so completely avoidable. It was initiated by an individual with an axe to grind, and we are where we now are because it was handled with such stunning ineptitude by NHSF throughout. That and because SP turned out to be the wrong person for them to treat like shit.

But Dr U felt cornered. Presumably in the same way he felt female.