NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

One day closer to it restarting. Sad I didn’t discover tribunal tweets when BU and SP were on the stand.

Just a thought, if JR decides she is no longer able to defend both Upton and Fife. Does that mean the case could be postponed next week to allow one of them to find another Barrister and for them to get up to speed with the case?

Apologies if this has been asked before as I’m still trying to catch up, but having seen the KS emails and the description of the “confrontation” she sent to all those people, will KS be aware that DrU has very much rowed back from what he initially said - that SP was actually not aggressive, didn’t compare to Isla Bryson etc?

Just thinking it would be interesting if she goes in saying that DrU told her that SP had been really aggressive and compared to a rapist, but the panel have already heard from DrU that she wasn’t and didn’t, would they just let her basically confirm that DrU exaggerated the whole thing?

I think that is the key difference, over and above 'normal' bullying/harassment at work where I do get your point about needing a separate record somewhere not work related.

That's the thing with working for the NHS / in healthcare and/or as a doctor. When I was training it was drummed into us that our actions and our roles were held to different standards. There are higher expectations on us due to the level of vulnerability of the people and information we work with and the huge amounts of trust and esteem (pre Fife...) people give us.

The same as the requirements for accurate documentation - it is honestly banged on about left right and centre.

So much of my training and early career was about reminding you that you could be called on to defend your actions and your paperwork would be all you had.

This lot come across like they've never had any training in anything ever.

And GI and TRAs have created or inflamed this situation we now have, where some young people entering these professions honestly forget the point of it all - to centre the patient, to serve the public, to perform a role as 'the grown up' for vulnerable people in their time of need. DU 's whole approach is the opposite of anything I was taught and the culture that was instilled in me (I'm similar in vintage and service to SP).

All the talk of Hurt Feelings just makes me think of this excellent thing from Flight of the Conchords

I can't see that there would be any other incidences. Not sure there would have been the time tbh.

He was only recently qualified so can't have an extensive career elsewhere, and he got married about 2 yrs before "the incidents" where is he is dressed as and presenting very much as a man with beard etc.

I'm not saying that he wasn't identifying as a women then, not that he wasn't using female facilities then ,as it would be in keeping with his and IBs statements that he could still "be a woman" regardless of facial hair, dress and appearance.

It also seems highly unlikely that NHS Scotland elsewhere has such good processes that they'd have disciplined and gone through the farce of processes like we are seeing now to the extent of NDAs being signed and sealed in that short period of time.

I doubt NHS Fife is that much if an outlier sadly. I reckon they're just the ones that got caught being this bad.

@nauticant thank you for all your hard work on these threads.

I hope you don’t mind my pointing out that what you call barristers in England are referred to as advocates, or more commonly as counsel, in Scotland . So Jane Russell KC is NHS Fife’s senior counsel, not their barrister.

They are members of the Faculty of Advocates
https://www.advocates.org.uk/

I’m a day late and just catching up now on tribunal tweets last day.

NC’s silver tongued ability to get every TWAW “ally” to use accurate pronouns is a phenomenon. Can we please get her in charge of the media organisations or something? We’d get society talking normally in a week.

Can you remember in the first part of the tribunal when we were guessing what thread number we would get up to and it seemed wild that we'd even possibly get up to like 25 threads.

Now we're on thread 33, with more tribunal ahead of us.

Thank you @nauticant because over these 33 threads so far just imagine how many new people have been peaked

Just saw this from BoswellToday on X re NHS Fife's statement. Exquisite.

At this point,@nhsfife’s comms team must be a rotating cast of squirrels on Red Bull, rewriting live from a bouncy castle.

I thought the Times article about Jane Russell and her potential conflict of interest most enlightening. I know she has kept her own views out of it, but I note how her husband protested against the Supreme Court judgement, and can be said to be a trans ally. Contrast that with the NHS Fife statement on Friday where they tried to smear Naomi Campbell as being part of Sex Matters and being biased.

It sounds as though both parties are represented by the right people. Now I know that Jane Russell keeps losing cases, but that is probably because when it comes down to it, men aren't women, and even the cleverest lawyer can't make it so.

The Times article linked above is very interesting, I didn't know anything about JR's husband. Explains a lot. Their minds are so open that their brains fell out.

Thank for that I love a MN lesson.
I asked Mrs Google earlier (when reading the Times article linked above) what was the difference between a barrister and advocate but she confused me even more!

I wonder how many messages are flying this weekend between Fife's senior management and JR. She must have been really pissed off to be blindsided in the middle of questioning one of their own witnesses.

🤣😂🤣 Oh God why has the 😂 emoji gone awol!

Re the potential conflict of interest which JR faces between Upton and NHS Fife - could it be resolved by Fife throwing in the towel now, and just leaving her to act for Upton? I imagine not, because even if they try to withdraw she would still need to present Fife's case in summing up.

I did imagine JC, after defending this statement to the best of her ability on record, outside shrugging/eye rolling at NC, calling NHS Fife and strongly advising they get rid of the potentially libelous bits. That's probably a week in law, she gets paid very handsomely for what she does.

I was just about to go to bed, then saw that and couldn't resist.

NOW I'm going to bed.

Night night.

@UnWilly The day after my birthday is not my birthday, Mom! 😂This was being quoted in our house only earlier today!

That seems a bit unfair to squirrels, who have more sense than to dig their own grave.

Night all!

It sounds as though both parties are represented by the right people. Now I know that Jane Russell keeps losing cases, but that is probably because when it comes down to it, men aren't women, and even the cleverest lawyer can't make it so.

JR is in this unfortunate position where she'd carved out a niche on these sex and gender cases - as NC modestly says, few barristers have the specialist knowledge - but she keeps ending up on the losing side, because the law is tilting back towards reality right now.

She might win the odd case, she might mitigate damages in what seems a hopeless case, but it can't be very satisfying for her.

I don't know how ideologically committed she is, but nobody doubts that she's a clever lawyer who will give a client good representation. If I were talking to her I'd say: Come over to the dark side. We have Tunnocks.

Big question how has JR not been peeked?
I bet she wouldn't be willing to strip off in front of Upton or Pete.

I can't imagine the changes making much difference.

The original was read in court, screenshots will have been taken, there are public archives of the original statement. It's been widely seen by the public, so the changes made will have made little to no difference to the damages done to NHS Fifes reputation, or possibly their defense.

I am wringing my hands in anticipation for the resumption on Monday, it feels like Friday got left on such a cliffhanger and I can't wait for the next episode of my show to be on.

If I were talking to her I'd say: Come over to the dark side. We have Tunnocks. Lol 😆

Talking of Tunnocks if anyone happens to be visiting Epcot the British shop has Tunnocks Tea Cakes. Not cheap though.

Jane Russel is proper posh isn't she, like top tier, knows the Royals posh. Interesting article.