NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

The EHRC may be wading through very many responses to its consultation, a high proportion of which are probably ridiculous or vexatious. However, the farce playing out in Fife and other events may result in public opinion being so violently swayed towards the sex realistic side that any softening in favour of genderism would provoke a general uproar. After Peggie, any guidance that compromises sss would I think be seen as outrageous by most ordinary people.

So true. This sorry case shows there is nothing reasonable when it comes to the trans way of thinking and of their demands. The complete lack of empathy towards a fellow colleague in distress is stark here. Every single time the trans point of view must be prioritised and screw everyone else. I'm so glad this case is out in the open for the majority of sane and reasonable people to see it for what it is. Anyone of us or our families could find ourselves in Sandie's position and the majority can see who has been abused here. Keep going Sandie, we are all behind you.

Edited for spelling

Perhaps that statement was a deliberate ploy to filibuster the court's time to avoid anymore witnesses? Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Very clear that the one who was cornered was Sandie. Over 6 foot former hockey player nearer the exit than much smaller and older woman, he didnt even need to push her aside.

Could Naomi ask for an order that Fife do no more press releases on the case until the tribunal is over? They shouldnt be doing that anyway.

Does anyone fear that even more court time will be required to sort out this omnishambles? Justice delayed is justice denied but NHSF are surely deliberately trying to queer the process (in earlier meaning of the word).
However, were I SP and NC or indeed Big Sond, I’d be prepared to rush through witnesses and sit early/late to get through.

What even is a corner?

geometry? meh

as in: biology? meh

Wow the thread made it through the night without adding an extra half dozen pages!

NC shouldn't need to ask them not to do any more press releases. Thats JRs job thry are her client and totally undermining her.

@borntobequiet I think you could be right this case could well be the one that makes it impossible for EHRC to have any compromise on SSS.
Fife have made such a rip roaring disaster out it and Sandie is surely in for a decent payout.

Someone else mentioned they believed SSS would be upheld when insurance companies say they won't insurance trans in sss. That day could come very soon.

Who is in for the hot seat today, does anyone know please? It wouldn't surprise me that the omnishambles statement was released to waste the court's time and to try to avoid more witnesses. I can't think what possessed them to release it otherwise!

Charlotte (Lottie) Myles, originally scheduled for all day starting at 10. By end of Friday, scheduled for 11; dunno what current status may be.

It would be a plausible theory except I just don't believe anyone at NHS Fife is bright enough to have come up with that!

Thats because men do not think like women and therefore he couldn’t understand her need for privacy proving once again that thinking like a woman isnt possible and it is all a fantasy in a mans head!

Hi, usual lurker here but i am free today thought i might comment later so thought i should say hello!

I have a heavy day of work ahead of me prepping handover before I go on holiday. I’ll check in at lunchtime to estimate how much Of my evening will need to be dedicated to catching up. Thanks to all who keep up the commentary for those of us who can’t follow live. It’s very much appreciated.

Yes this 100%

Has anyone done a count of the number of people engaging with these threads?
Or indeed, I wonder what MN would say the engagement rate is?

The longevity of the threads may not be the defining characteristic, as the stately homes and others also have many threads , but the speed- 32 in 4 months, most in the first and last fortnight.

It goes a bit against the grain to be fair to DU after all we have heard, but did he know that SP was dealing with a period disaster? Men are not always at all observant, especially if they are of the more self-centred variety.

I second what @CatOnAHotRadiator said. Thank you to all who keep the threads updated, it really is so helpful to those of us who can't follow the tribunal live.

Looking forward to catching up with it all tonight when the kids are in bed.

will NC now ask everyone, as the first question "are you also uncertain of your sex?". That was delicious.

Oh my word, still catching up, so much interesting discussion it’s hard to skip through! Thanks to @nauticant as ever. I also appreciate @prh47bridge’s legal input throughout all the threads. And everyone’s contributions really!

I agree that men cannot possibly understand what it is like to be a woman. Though tbh I think any decent men would just respect a woman's need for privacy in this case even if they did not fully understand....but then again a decent man would not be in a woman's space to begin with.

What was the real aim of the press releases? Just as Upton’s testimony was badly badly interrupted just as it was becoming damning, I can’t help wondering whether they had hoped the Judge would conclude that there should be no further public access because the reputation of innocent Fife employees was getting dragged through the mud on X and Mumsnet and, err…death threats? (It’s a bit of a stretch, but no sane Press Office would send out 4 versions (or is it 9) over a weekend).

They had rather overlooked that the reason the ET is where it is is because of the threats made to Sandie and her legal team. Having a go at Sex Matters wasn’t too bright, either.

Justice Kemp is rightly cross, but I think sufficient numbers of Scottish public bodies are rolling up their sleeves to have a good look at NHS Fife, that it would be sensible to simply admonish NHS Fife and move on.

If JR finally realises that her two clients represent a conflict and asks for the Tribunal to be paused I’ll be very cross.
That said, maybe NHS Fife don’t want to throw Upton under a bus?

I’m going splurge £1 on a 3 month Courier sub. I hope it will go some way to showing the management that we appreciate proper investigative journalism.

Slightly stressed, tearful woman in locker room begging you to leave as she needs privacy....spare pads and scrubs in hand ...

I think the same convo applies even without him being fully walked through the details. If I was asked by someone who was even perhaps short and snappy with me, to leave the changing room because "I just need a minute to sort myself out" I would ask if I could help at all and leave as soon as humanly possible, probably indicating to anyone else trying to enter to give it a mo.

I just can't imagine a scenario in which a colleague asked me to leave a small space where it is very much implied they're going to get changed or undressed, to give them some space, and digging my heels in to argue the toss about my right to be there.

Joanne Livsey makes an interesting observation. “If only they spent a little time familiarising themselves with the Menopause Policy, and reviewing by the due date.”

https://x.com/jolivsey/status/1946926593290441107

NB: I have included an image but it will probably not show for a while. Yes, I have noticed the use of “person not woman.

Oh that's funny?
My question is when will the mystical Pete make his appearance, he seems to be good at drilling through people's illogical reasoning.

For some reason, my adblocker still seems to work on MN (though like everyone else I had to click something or other that was meant to prevent adblocking), so I don't know what sort of ads appear around these threads. Can anyone say?
I'm just wonderingwhether/how the high engagement on this particular topic affects revenue?