NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

It's not just menopause or peri-menopause, it's potentially every month for as many years as you have periods - so a 40 - 45 year stretch on average.

Chuck in women's health issues like endometriosis, PCOS etc, and it could be more frequent and intense.

From SP's evidence:

DU started to undress. And I was trying to avoid looking at him. I turned my head towards my locker. I told DU that I felt it was unacceptable that he was in the female CR. I told him I was embarrassed and intimidated. And I didn't think he should have been in there. DU informed me that he had as much right to be there as I did. I told him that wasn't true, if I wanted to get changed in front of a man, I would have been in the other CRs. And I once again told him I was embarrassed and intimidated. I turned to look at him. And tried to make him understand how I felt, I mentioned the recent incident in the court, when a male prisoner had been put in a female prison. And I had also told DU that I had been previous bad experience with a man. I was hoping he would realise my discomfort.
NC - what did DU say to you
SP - told me there were protocols I could follow, I told him that's what I would do and then I left the room.

@KnottyAuty is correct. On her own evidence, SP did not mention that she was experiencing a heavy period. Of course, that does not in any way justify Upton's behaviour or Fife's actions.

I think honestly its a lot of be kind stuff without fully understanding what they are agreeing to, when i speak to younger people they seem to think its genuinely not harming anyone and its only after i say well wouldnt you like privacy in a womans changing room? And then what if the man is lying and doesnt ‘feel’ like a woman but rather is excited by the idea he is in a a female changing room and then they almost immediately say well i dont want them in there! I find it scary that so many women are so naive to these men’s true intentions especially like a Dr is a female changing room in a hospital he could have very specific things that excite him like the idea of sharing a space with a woman while she is having a heavy period..

Not everyone on Reddit is a swivel eyed TRA apparently:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/1m4kfs8/tribunal_bundle_reveals_new_details_in_sandie/

Completely agree. But as far as I can tell DU omitted to tell people that Sandie had spoken of a previous sexual assault when first describing the 'confrontation' with Sandie. I wonder if this would have given any of her colleagues pause for thought / prompted them to think she was OK / made them question DU's agenda.

when a male prisoner had been put in a female prison.

And from this Upton quite correctly inferred that the only men who are put into women's prisons are trans identifying men, who I believe are often incarcerated for sex crimes.

sorry double post

Speaking as a man, I would agree that I have never experienced a period, nor will I ever do so. However, I don't find it hard to imagine what I would feel like if I had blood pouring out of my genitals once a month and it started unexpectedly. That clearly isn't the same as actually experiencing it and I would never claim that it was, but I have no problem understanding any woman's need for privacy in that situation. For me, any man who can't understand that is either completely lacking in empathy or is being deliberately obtuse.

Do you think Andrew Learmouth's sterling journalism on this case for the Scottish Herald is going to force the BBC to up it's game and report honestly? I noticed that it's most recent article about SP suing her union was a bit better than it's previous offerings. It actually pointed out that Upton is a man and it quotes SP saying that he started undressing in front of her.

And according to Isla Bumba, those men aren't a threat to women unless they're specifically Isla Bryson.

The world's gone mad.

Would his medical training not have included a physical phenomenon half the human race experience if they live to middle age? If not, why not?

Including knowing that it is a thing that should always be held in consideration when dealing with a female patient in the relevant age group, regardless of whether she mentions it.

Remember sex is a nebulous dog whistle and hes biologically female.

Don't think he paid much attention in the sex classes.

Oh, you clearly haven't come across the TRAs who have convinced themselves that they have monthly cramps that are periods.

Any decent man would instantly understand a woman's need for privacy in that situation. I'd say it's almost the perfect test to detect the perverts & predators. 99% of us would feel massively awkward, we would mumble apologies and GTFO. Once outside the room we'd find a woman colleague and murmer "Sandie might need some help in the loo, she's had a bit of an accident down there", and we would never speak of it again.

It's very striking that Dr Uptonogood was either unable or unwilling to prioritise Sandie's feelings & needs, but instead saw this as the ultimate boss-level opportunity to validate his own purported womanhood. Not particularly unique either - a common troon trope is to carry tampons everywhere, actively hoping for a situation like this.

Its not quite the speed of the Brexit threads at peak Brexit, but its not far off.

For such a subject we were told repeatedly by MPs that it was unimportant because it was so 'niche' thats quite the achievement.

Maya getting 1.2million views on the Searle Email is also another fairly big indicator. As is the number of national newspaper articles including several front page leads.

The story was 2nd on the Daily Mail website on Friday BEFORE the Statement went out.

Those paying attention realised it wasn't niche years ago because of the authoritarian issues and the potential level of impact. We have officially reached the firm breaking point.

We are past the point of no return. This case has the fortune of being much more accessible, connectable and relatable to public than Cass and the SC decision. There will be no slide back from this.

Welcome to the other side my friends.

We now have a pile of new challenges to deal with and the risk of backlash from several quarters being very real. But the landscape on the other side of the mountain looks very different.

Come on in, there’s room for everyone!

<hands round Tunnocks> Wafer or teacake?

Welcome to the other side my friends.
@RedToothBrush

LOL - but hopefully so true 😍

I once had a male GP who would say "down there" in a slightly whispered voice. It used to make me properly laugh!

Teacake cheers,

noo that's whit a guid neebor looks like, ken? When the guid biscuits get put oot, ye ken their gled tae see ye.

All the media luvvies seem unusually quiet. Are they worried about falling of their pedestals?

A bit of light relief from JKR, before this thread ends and today's fun starts:

J.K. Rowling on X: "I’m naturally 5’8” as long as I’m wearing four inch heels. https://t.co/TxqvEZEeGG" / X

We now have a pile of new challenges to deal with and the risk of backlash from several quarters being very real. But the landscape on the other side of the mountain looks very different.

We're now having our picnic at the top of the mountain and enjoying the view. Everyone's got sore feet and are a bit puffed out and needs to get ready for the next bit of walking but we've seen and enjoyed the view and it was a beautiful, clear, blue one.

(Thinking, what would be in a terfy picnic?)

Still cannot fathom the sheer level of incompetence over at NHS Fife. I am expecting resignations but that might be too hopeful.

Anyone take a wager Carol Potter goes?

We need the lol emoji back, that's a good clap back from JKR