Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 12:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:44

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 19:37

He's going to bring the whole thing down.

Oh the irony!

He may well be planning to use the court transcripts in mitigation for any gross misconduct or GMC charges brought against him. He may have behaved terribly but they all played a part.

CatOnAHotRadiator · 18/07/2025 19:44

If I was blocking the film I’d start with a drone shot of sunlight on the water of the Firth of Forth.

it would be spring (poetic license given the tribunal started in Feb) and the drone would sweep over the water and move inland demonstrating the beauty of Scotland. We’d merge (unrealistically but dramatically) into a street in Fife and the shit would settle following a blond woman as she walks purposefully down the street.

the whole of this shit is backed by the audio of a piper.

The woman keeps walking and as we head through the doors of the office building we leave her to continue in as the shot pans out to show the signage on the door that says it’s a tribunal building.

Cut to title. Piping ends.

opening credits start over general short shots of people preparing for a court hearing. Music playing is something serious but of the time. Papers being arranged. Conferences. Stenographer typing etc. And as the credits come to a close the music fades.

I would the. Write the film as a court procedural but show the story via flashbacks. The court scenes would be “real” but flashbacks would use the perspective of the witnesses.

We’d use lots of dramatic license and end the film with the tribunal judge making a decision there and then and declaring it to court.

Close on another piper, but jubilant, and women everywhere celebrating.

Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 19:44

TrainedByCats · 18/07/2025 19:40

I assume by Monday NHS Fife and Upton will have separate barristers, I wonder which client Jane Russell gets to keep 😂

Do you think Barristers can be found sitting on shelfs?
What Barrister would want to try and defend either of them?
Especially with a weekends notice and a fuck-wit of a Friday press release.

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:45

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 19:36

Fife cannot settle unless Sandie lets them. She has all the power, now 😈

Not can they offer to settle without Days agreement.

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 19:46

I posted this on another thread, but think I need to put it here as well. Mainly with reference to the press release, but also to the general carry-on (I don't know what sex I am, I don't know what sex anyone is, what even is sex?) and their banding together to do harm.

Their incompetence would be funny if they hadn't made such a serious collective effort to destroy Sandy Peggie. That stops them being comic numpties and shows them up as a dead-eyed goon squad.

That in turn makes me wonder is the incompetence performative, in the hope that people will think their evil behavior was accidental.

It wasn't. They really are that unprincipled and vicious.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 18/07/2025 19:46

Arran2024 · 18/07/2025 19:27

Did you never see the musical /film Kinky Boots? It's about drag queens looking for suitable footwear and a shoe factory which is going out of business getting into the trans/drag queen market.

It’s based on a true story

https://icantbelieveitsnonfiction.com/2019/08/13/wj-brookes/

WJ Brooks

Steve Pateman grew up in the WJ Brooks shoe factory owned by his father. He knew the entire process and could run any machine in the factory. In the early 1990s, Steve took over the company. WJ Bro…

https://icantbelieveitsnonfiction.com/2019/08/13/wj-brookes/

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 19:47

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:45

Not can they offer to settle without Days agreement.

Yes. They can offer to settle. And she can refuse.

Mmmnotsure · 18/07/2025 19:47

KateShugakIsALegend · 18/07/2025 18:57

My post at 18:05? Not a proper archive, apologies, but carries the image.

It does, including the title - thank you.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:48

Has their statement about Sandie Peggie from 16th July been pulled too? I can't see it there but may be mistaken?

Edit its still there but only shows on a different tab. I thought it was linked previously?

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 19:49

Sorry if you've all seen this, I'm just catching up, but shitting hell it's all kicking off:

Later, Scotland's information commissioner criticised NHS Fife and said he may report the board to the Court of Session.
David Hamilton appeared to take exception to the statement setting out in detail the costs of the tribunal so far.
He wrote: "On 18 July 2025, NHS Fife released a media statement that referenced the commissioner's decision 133/2025.
"The petulant tone of NHS Fife's latest statement is quite remarkable but it is the contents that concern me most.
"They have now cast doubt upon the assurances they gave me regarding compliance with my decision notice.
"I will investigate further and if the authority has not indeed fully complied with my decision then I may report the matter to the Court of Session as a contempt of court."
That earlier decision refers to the commissioner's findings in May, external that NHS Fife had not provided information to three freedom of information requests about the cost of the Peggie tribunal.
Commenting at the time, he wrote: "It's extremely frustrating that the action taken by NHS Fife has led to a situation where I am simply unable to rule on the substantive issues at the heart of this case.
"And, while it is frustrating for me, it will be far more frustrating for those people who sought access to this information."

From the BBC article I posted above.

https://www.foi.scot/sites/default/files/2025-05/Decision133-2025.pdf

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 19:50

Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 19:44

Do you think Barristers can be found sitting on shelfs?
What Barrister would want to try and defend either of them?
Especially with a weekends notice and a fuck-wit of a Friday press release.

Maybe Jolyon. High profile case - he could ride in to defend DU. Leaving JR on damage limitation for Fife.

So looking forward to Monday! This could be a corker of a starter with judge having something to say, NC will be geared up for max fire power and in the background we may hear the squeals of the Fife board as David Hamilton pulls into the car park for a chat with them.

anyolddinosaur · 18/07/2025 19:52

Current version of Fife's statement - I'm apparently now blocked from their website for trying to put it into the wayback machine

Statement on the Recommencement o...
Statement on the Recommencement of the Employment Tribunal
NHS Fife is setting out its position on a number of matters related to the ongoing employment tribunal and provide clarity around some of the misinformation circulating around the tribunal case that NHS Fife is defending.

With the employment tribunal now having recommenced, NHS Fife would like to clarify its position on a number of related matters. This is intended to answer some of the questions posed to the health board by members of the press, elected representatives and the public, and provide clarity around some of the misinformation circulating on social media and being reported in the wider media relating to the tribunal case that NHS Fife is having to defend.

NHS Fife has obligations, both as a public sector organisation and as an employer, to maintain the confidentiality of members of its staff, including those directly and indirectly involved in the tribunal. This, coupled with the requirement not to take any actions which could be seen to prejudice the legal proceedings, means that NHS Fife is restricted in what it can and cannot say publicly. NHS Fife remains committed to transparency, however, and will always aim to be open in the information provided directly to the public and to the media and will continue to act in accordance with its legal obligations and public duties.
While NHS Fife recognises the clear public interest in the tribunal, and of scrutinising NHS Fife’s actions as a public body, it remains important to be mindful of the privacy of all those giving evidence in the case. There has been significant and very polarised debate on social media regarding the case and associated issues, throughout. In some cases, however, what began as debate has evolved into much more worrying behaviour, including a threat of physical harm and sexual violence, which has required the involvement of Police Scotland. To be clear NHS Fife is not seeking to suggest that anyone involved with Sex Matters have contributed to the behaviour or issues mentioned above.
We value the contribution of every member of staff and the diversity that strengthens our teams, services, and care. Our staff are committed professionals, and we are proud of the work delivered across NHS Fife every day. At this critical time, it is essential they remain focused on providing high-quality care and services without being subjected to unacceptable personal attacks and trolling on social media.

Why is NHS Fife continuing the tribunal case? Why not simply drop the action?
NHS Fife did not initiate the ongoing tribunal proceedings and is instead one of two ‘respondents’ being sued. NHS Fife cannot unilaterally stop proceedings.
The health board is not pursuing any legal action against the claimant - it is instead defending itself, as it is required to do. The legal case concerns a range of different claims and allegations, against NHS Fife and its staff, including in relation to the claimant’s suspension, the investigation, and other matters allegedly said or done.

Is this case not just about a staff member raising concerns about a trans woman using a female changing room?
While the claimant raised concerns about a trans woman’s use of a locker room, this was not the reason that NHS Fife’s internal investigation was initiated. As made clear during tribunal proceedings, the disciplinary process was initiated due to concerns raised about interactions with a colleague and patient care.
The Health Board has a responsibility to fully investigate where concerns are raised about the conduct of any of its employees, in accordance with established policies and procedures. The act of investigating a concern does not assume any wrongdoing.

An internal disciplinary investigation is not of itself punitive in nature and exists to fairly assess concerns raised by establishing facts. At the stage legal action via an employment tribunal was taken by the claimant in this case, NHS Fife had not reached any final conclusions on its internal investigation although, as widely reported, this has since been completed. NHS Fife believes its internal disciplinary process in this matter has been fair and impartial.
A statement regarding the conclusion of the internal investigation and the internal conduct hearing is available on the NHS Fife website here:- Media Statement – NHS Fife Outcome of Internal Conduct Hearing | NHS Fife.
To be clear, the NHS Fife internal disciplinary process (now concluded) is separate and distinct from the ongoing Employment Tribunal. The Employment Tribunal hearing will conclude on 30 July, and the Judgment is expected in the months following that.

How much has defending the employment tribunal case cost NHS Fife?
The cost to NHS Fife of defending the tribunal case is capped at £25,000. NHS Fife participates in the Clinical Negligence and Other Risks Indemnity Scheme (CNORIS), which works in a similar way to an insurance policy by protecting members against financial losses and legal costs pertaining to both clinical and non-clinical claims and settlements.

As of 30 June 2025, £258,831.31 in legal costs have been recorded as expenditure related to the legal services associated with this case. NHS Fife is liable for the first £25,000 of costs associated with defending the case.
Why did NHS Fife not provide the costs of the legal defence sooner?
Earlier this year, NHS Fife was asked to confirm the legal costs associated with the employment tribunal under FOI legislation. At the time these requests were made, NHS Fife believed that it did not hold the figures requested, as the legal fees were managed through the Central Legal Office (CLO) and National Services Scotland (NSS) who administer the CNORIS Indemnity scheme.
The Scottish Information Commissioner was critical of the thoroughness of the search carried out by NHS Fife and instructed the Health Board to “carry out adequate, proportionate searches for the information requested, reach a decision on the basis of those searches” (Decision 133/2025 | Scottish Information Commissioner).

Separately, NHS Fife sought and obtained information from its legal representatives, Central Legal Office, on the cost of legal services.
In the interests of transparency, and on the basis that similar information was being actively sought, NHS Fife made the decision to publish this information on its website with costs up until 31st May 2025, which at the time amounted to £220,465.93.

While it has been widely reported that NHS Fife was told to provide this information by the Scottish Information Commissioner, this is inaccurate. The information commissioner stated in his decision cited above that: “the withheld information the Authority provided to the Commissioner was obtained from CLO after the date it received the Applicants’ requests. This means the Commissioner cannot make a finding on, or require disclosure of, this information in his decision notice.” NHS Fife subsequently made the decision to publish the figures on its website up until 31 May 2025 in the interests of transparency, and on the basis that similar information was being actively sought.

Why did NHS Fife seek a Rule 50 (Privacy) Order at the start of the tribunal proceedings?
NHS Fife has a duty of care to all its staff. For those staff members involved in the tribunal, particular consideration was given to protect their safety, security and wellbeing. We believed that having the tribunal heard in private would mitigate the risks to the safety and wellbeing of all staff members attending or identified during the tribunal proceedings.

Why did NHS Fife seek to restrict Tribunal Tweets, and public access to live proceedings from the tribunal?
Following the end of the earlier tribunal hearings in February 2025, NHS Fife’s legal representatives were contacted by the Employment Tribunal and asked to provide comment on tweets by the Tribunal Tweets account on the X platform after a complaint by a member of the public. The account had originally been granted permission to live-tweet proceedings on the basis their reporting would be ‘fair and accurate’. The Health Board’s legal representatives analysed the tweets and highlighted several inaccuracies to the tribunal.

The tribunal subsequently ruled that Tribunal Tweets would be allowed to continue live reporting of the case; however, did state “It is a matter of concern nevertheless that mistakes were made, including writing a comment not by a witness or participant, but another observer, for example. The Tribunal reserves its position should further matters be brought to its attention, and the conditions for live tweeting provided previously are further breached”.
During the initial phase of proceedings there were also issues and disruption with the livestream due to the significant number of people granted access. To assist the smooth running of proceedings, our legal representatives sought to limit the stream to media as a means of reducing the opportunity for further disruption and interruptions. The livestream was disabled by the tribunal administrators for a time during the February hearing, because of these issues. The tribunal has since confirmed that it will continue to open the livestream to all that can be accommodated, for the July hearing dates, having implemented certain measures in this regard.

The Health Board appreciates that there are deeply entrenched views on both sides of the debate around single-sex spaces and has never sought to stifle fair and reasoned debate on the topic, asking only that any media coverage is respectful, fair, balanced, accurate, and distinguishes fact from opinion.

What changes have NHS Fife made in response to the recent Supreme Court ruling on the legal definition of a woman?
NHS Fife acknowledges the Supreme Court’s ruling and other developments in this area. Work is underway across the entirety of the health board's estate (including toilets, changing and locker rooms) to identify areas where any adaptions may be required and schedule any work that may be necessary to improve facilities. We are committed to delivering appropriate and respectful workplace arrangements.

  • NHS Fife is not seeking to suggest that Sex Matters have contributed to the behaviour or issues mentioned above.
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 19:52

PronounssheRa · 18/07/2025 17:44

I think they have added this to the original

To be clear NHS Fife is not seeking to suggest that anyone involved with Sex Matters have contributed to the behaviour or issues mentioned above.

Someone's had a word.

Wtf. Couldn't even word the statement right without legal going 'shiiiiiittt wtf are you doing?!!'

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 19:52

I admire the barristers not letting themselves be distracted by side issues, but I'd love someone to point out that heartbroken sobs are a standard strategy for men who inflict violence on their partners. 'Look what you made me do'. Never trust an adult, woman or man, who cries to get their own way

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 19:52

Jolyon is no longer a practising barrister

IslandsAround · 18/07/2025 19:53

Would someone put NHS Fife board out of their misery?

I am going to FOI about who approves these press releases / board hiring / board feedback.

I mean at this stage OSCR or whoever governs them should be stepping in.

It is totally on brand but I am aghast at how absolutely batshit they and their team are. Jane Russell needs to sack her clients. They’re unmanageable.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:53

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 19:44

This still looked really bad for Sandie while the original statement from 2.31 today was online, as that article first talked about Sex Matters/threats/police, and then segued straight into the original about Upton sobbing after the 'confrontation' in changing room.

I'm glad the BBC has had the smirk wiped off its face progressively as the Fife Statement has been amended.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 18/07/2025 19:53

Rhaidimiddim · 18/07/2025 18:56

Maya the love child of Trump and J K.

Oh dear Lord.

That is an image/coupling that I IMMEDIATELY require brain bleach for.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 18/07/2025 19:53

SionnachRuadh · 18/07/2025 16:48

Any press officer will tell you, never release a statement at 4pm on a Friday because it will just make the punters suspicious.

But releasing a statement at 4pm on a Friday in the middle of a very high profile tribunal just boggles my mind.

I know there are a lot of public sector bodies in Scotland that are incompetently run, but serious question: is NHS Fife the worst of them? Because on current evidence, a management team of drunken chimps would do better.

But it is a legal tactic. My now gratefully, thankfully, forever, ex-H lawyers used to do this. Most weeks 5:45pm on a Friday - incoming. As I got to know the tactic I would swerve it. But sadly no family court judge (fucking wankers mostly) would ever agree it was a deliberate tactic to intimidate. That is the only purpose to send out something at the very last possible moment before the working week ends. Of course its a fucking tactic. And this was.

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:53

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 19:47

Yes. They can offer to settle. And she can refuse.

My typos screwed up my meaning. They can only offer to settle with DU’s agreement as, as they point out in their statement, they are only one of two respondents.

The inference being that DU is preventing them from offering terms for a settlement that SP might be willing to consider (in their view). Rumour suggests that settlement offers have been contingent on SP keeping schtum about the terms and the terms include elements she will never agree to no matter how much they offer.

I think they are letting us know that DU is pulling the settlement strings and if it weren’t for him their settlement would be agreed (I don’t think that would actually be the case — I just think that’s what NHS Fife have persuaded themselves)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/07/2025 19:55

Can JR refuse to continue to represent NHS Fife? I'm sure there was something a while ago (Scottish Government Alex Salmond) where the lawyers said something about being professionally embarrassed and the case becoming "unstateable". I'd bet JR is feeling professionally embarrassed right now...

IslandsAround · 18/07/2025 19:55

socialdilemmawhattodo · 18/07/2025 19:53

But it is a legal tactic. My now gratefully, thankfully, forever, ex-H lawyers used to do this. Most weeks 5:45pm on a Friday - incoming. As I got to know the tactic I would swerve it. But sadly no family court judge (fucking wankers mostly) would ever agree it was a deliberate tactic to intimidate. That is the only purpose to send out something at the very last possible moment before the working week ends. Of course its a fucking tactic. And this was.

Yes totally a legal tactic. Send all your comms at 5pm and put other side under massive stress.

But in this case the lawyers were blindsided. The client has gone rouge and the lawyers were caught on the hoof - and have advised they amend it - were on what version 3 now? Bonkers out of control client and board. Bad deal for the lawyers in this case.

SionnachRuadh · 18/07/2025 19:55

IslandsAround · 18/07/2025 19:53

Would someone put NHS Fife board out of their misery?

I am going to FOI about who approves these press releases / board hiring / board feedback.

I mean at this stage OSCR or whoever governs them should be stepping in.

It is totally on brand but I am aghast at how absolutely batshit they and their team are. Jane Russell needs to sack her clients. They’re unmanageable.

Not being funny but if NHS Fife were a school it would have been in special measures a long time ago.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.